Windows 11 is collecting more user data than you know | Hacker News Reader

Windows 11 is collecting more user data than you know

windowsreport.com

80 pointshassanahmad69 comments

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34712640 from 1 day ago (457 points, 336 comments)

(Techspot.com article referencing the same YouTube source video.)

I recently rebuilt my computer and figured I would just go with Windows 11 to have all the new features and compatibility.

I have been seriously debating on reinstalling and going back to 10. Just yesterday "gaming services" just decided it no longer wanted to run.

With the talk of how much data this thing collects it really makes me uneasy. Even though I only use it for gaming (I use my Mac for everything else)... I still occasionally do other things on it for convenience.

Edit: I also thoroughly enjoy my startup being interrupted by "finish setting up this device" once a week when its really just trying to get me to setup office, one drive, and others.

Other side note, the fact that Office won't let me choose what I want to install... and it forces me to reinstall teams?!?

Everybody should know by now that Windows 11 is a vastly inferior product compared to 10.

Do not use it!!

Egh... I'm not so against it in real life. For example, we've had Microsoft Accounts for over a decade in my family, and the refined design in Windows 11, like it or not, is more consistent than the mystery meat of Windows 10. So, we really didn't mind. For average non-technical users, Windows 11 is definitely more friendly for even basic tasks like "how do I pair a Bluetooth speaker" than Windows 10's Settings Panel.

Though I completely understand and accept this isn't everyone. For us though, it was decent.

I am not really sure if I could go so far as to say "vastly inferior". Windows 11 has its major issues but it also has some advantages when it comes to gaming and the xbox app.

Things seem to be more integrated (however clearly not fully given my issue I mentioned) on that front which for me is a good thing since this is a gaming pc.

Going with Windows 11 should have been an easy decision, but clearly they are screwing that up.

I switched to Ubuntu recently. Never looking back. There are still minor painpoints, but they pale in comparison with the mess that has become Windows.

Since this is really just a gaming PC I really don't feel comfortable going the linux route for it.

I know there is proton, but at the end of the day what matters for me is that my games work, I can record and stream. I know Linux Gaming has come a long way but until all of my games are running natively, I don't want to make the switch. Its the same reason I don't just have a nice Mac.

Indeed. Linux is a no go for me. I don't use Steam, also I use DosBox a lot and tinker with a ton of stuff related to games.

When it comes to gaming, nothing compares to Windows by a long shot. Unfortunately.

I think you would be surprised. Certainly DosBox will continue to work exactly the same way on Linux as you are used to on Windows.

Given your gaming background, I can see why you don't want a Mac. But Linux? I have two kids, aged 7 and 10. They would be very much 'not amused' if I'd propose them 'tux racer' or the likes... Steam works pretty much out of the box, and there's proton as you mentioned.

Perhaps you could install a second hard disk in your machine, and make it dual-boot? Just as a POC, and to get an idea of the state of Linux gaming.

I did experiment with it on my Steam Deck, and even there I ended up dual booting and most of my gaming on it is on Windows.

I do play some things on SteamOS but there are some games that I play that either don't work or they are tied into the Xbox Ecosystem so the lack of Xbox friends is a non starter for me. (Halo being a prime example)

Would Windows in a VM (Parallels) just for games work?

I mean technically but if I am running a Windows VM 100% of the time I am using this PC it kinda defeats the purpose of having Linux installed.

Also that would be a huge hit to performance of the games.

I don’t know about Parallels specifically, but VMs can work provided you use PCIe passthrough so the VM can gain direct access to your video card. Since your primary OS also wants access to the video card for compositing, you might end up needing two (but the second one wouldn’t have to be very expensive).

I'm on Linux Mint.

Vivado works. No need for Windows or Centos or Redhat.

I mean is windows 10 collecting less data? I doubt it.

I remember seeing the same articles coming out when 10 came out. At the time there was also mention that they back ported the same collection schemes into win 7 updates.

They ruined windows 7 too? Damn it.

After almost a decade using a low-end 1.6 ghz linux laptop that was eternally plugged to the power supply I could afford to buy a Mini PC that still had decent specs so you still could play mid 2010s AAA games in mid-settings.

The mini-pc already came with Windows 11 preinstalled on a 256 gb SSD, I though that was sufficient to allocate a new partition and install linux in it whilst still keeping windows to play games it, however the steam games soon ate up half the SSD with little room for anything else.

I had to make a though decision either I format the SSD entirely to make room for linux or I keep windows 11 to be able to play games.

I chose the latter, on the bright side it stimulated me to learn IDEs for development and depend less on command line only tools from linux.

Search for Windows Ameliorated for a hassle free gaming/utility OS. No updates thus unsafe. Visual Studio proper works just fine. No idea bout office though.

What do you mean, "No Updates thus unsafe". Wouldn't that be a major reason not to use it or am I misunderstanding?

I have heard of this before but I don't think I ever heard of it related to gaming. I will check it out though.

They pretty much ripped out everything, no ads/shop/telemetry/updates. It will be stable and not shutdown for updates during work but still, secure looks different. Could work well, if you only allow JavaScript selectively (main threat vector nowadays) and know how to handle email attachments from strangers proposing the deal of your lifetime etc.

Microsoft knows they have 85+% of the consumer desktop/laptop market in the bag, and they're looking to build up an ad business through this telemetry.

Enterprise users are a captive audience - pay through the nose with year over year price hikes, or good luck with Linux. Microsoft's position is increasingly take it or leave it. When Microsoft lets Panos Panay ('head' of Windows) run these insane UI / UX experiments and foists it on Enterprise users via Windows 11/12, Microsoft is playing with fire. It's ridiculous to ask front line workers relearn tasks because some designer at Microsoft had too much caffeine and in a manic state decided to design some insane UX regression in Windows 11.

I would pay extra (more than a Windows 11 Pro license) to have a stripped down, Windows 2000 / NT Microsoft supported theme (I'm not installing UI/UX customizations from Stardock, sorry) that runs on the latest Windows kernel.

Other Enterprises want the same thing - UI / UX stability, running on the current Windows kernel.

We had a similar link yesterday, in which there was one major flaw in the methodology:

Windows 11, when set up, tires to load everything including the "Widgets." The Widgets, however, are not a native Windows app - the Widgets interface is actually just a Microsoft Edge WebView2, which loads a page from Bing. And, as a web wrapper, it also loads in all of Bing's telemetry that would normally apply to Bing searches, specifically for that wrapper.

If you try using Wireshark with Windows Widgets disabled, you can expect very different results.

Edit: Also, for people who didn't get my point, if you open the "News and Weather" section of Windows 10, that means you will almost certainly see similar Wireshark output. Thus the methodology is actually pointless for telling us how much Windows 11 vs 10 natively track - the only difference this establishes is that Windows 11 tries to load Widgets on first boot when Windows 10 waits for first click.

If that is what the defaults are, then this is a fair comparison.

This is still terrible and unacceptable.

Then I guess it's alright, then.

True, and not that but they consume a lot of resources as-well

https://oofhours.com/2022/01/30/the-overhead-of-widgets-and-...

I heard of this [0] software called O&O shutup that can disable all the calling home in Windows 11, does anyone have experience with it? I used to use privatezilla [1] in Windows 10 but I think they don't support Windows 11 yet.

[0] https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 [1] https://github.com/builtbybel/privatezilla

I've used shutup 10 on multiple machines and was pleased.

I believe this is a rather pro-Microsoft site. The fact that it's posting articles like this should be a sign of how public sentiment has changed.

Controversy brings traffic. Everyone loves traffic.

> but you know the old adage, “If you are not paying for the product, then you are the product.”

Isn't that a bit ironic considering Windows' two widely-regarded competitors (MacOS and Linux) technically cost nothing?

That's because with MacOS you pay for the software when you buy the hardware. Microsoft did not make hardware until a few years ago.

Sure, but lawfully downloading MacOS costs nothing as far as I'm aware. Same goes for Linux, albeit with different licensing considerations.

I just found the wording of the article funny, since it seems to run contrary to their report.

The MacOS license only allows running it on apple hardware. You can download all you want, but legally using it requires a mac.

Right. free as in beer, not as in "Free".

Windows for OEMs is licensed only for use on that PC, so it is no different from macOS in that respect.

Once again that is because you can only lawfully run MacOS on Apple Hardware. Read the EULA. Therefore if you have the hardware it is assumed you or someone paid Apple for it so the software was also indirectly bought with it.

That doesn't mean I inherantly paid for it. My dad could hand me down his old Mac and I would be able to lawfully download and use it without spending a dime.

The software is free (to download), it is not freely licensed though.

Does it matter who hands you the software? If he didn't download it then you could have done so yourself, there was nothing preventing you from doing so and using it on the Mac that was already paid for(even if not by you).

Pretty sure I can freely download Windows 11 too, and if my father passed me down his old laptop I could reinstall Windows on it.

I get what you're saying, but MacOS isn't cost free. It's only sold bundled with Apple hardware, and you must buy both.

Hence the "technical" clause in my original comment. Nothing stops me if I want to go (hypothetically) Hackintosh my Thinkpad. Apple lets you download the recovery image right from their CDN and (hypothetically) it's a cakewalk to mount OpenCore on it with an EFI off Github. Apple sure didn't make it, but they also don't have an "Activate MacOS" popup after you partition your drive (at least, in my expe- erm, hypothetically).

So, agree to disagree. The preeminent point is that Microsoft is the only one charging directly for the licensing of their software, which is ironic if it spies on you incessantly. Agreed?

Malarkey.

MacOS comes with a Kext called "Don't Steal MacOS", also known as "DSMOS." If it detects you are running on unapproved hardware, it stops your boot and also echos this message to your logs:

"Your karma check for today: There once was a user that whined, his existing OS was so blind, he'd do better to pirate an OS that ran great, but found his hardware declined. Please don't steal Mac OS! Really, that's way uncool. (C) Apple Computer, Inc."

It's not just a simple detection either, but actually uses encryption to decrypt certain MacOS components after the verification check (namely, Finder, Dock, SystemUIServer, some others). Removing or bypassing DSMOS is required for all Hackintoshing tools, and it's actually a DMCA violation do that (see Apple vs. Psystar). Legally, removing it is the equivalent of removing or disabling Windows Activation, or using a Windows Activation crack tool.

The bypass is most often accomplished with the simulated, fake SMC. However, (again) legally, that qualifies as a DMCA circumvention tool by including the specific key that MacOS is looking for.

It's illegal, but all of the components required to make it are free. I don't know what to tell you, it's like saying that PS2 emulation is actually $200 because everyone needs to buy their own PS2 to dump the firmware from. Hypothetically, you're right! Technically though...

> My dad could hand me down his old Mac and I would be able to lawfully download and use it without spending a dime.

You would be able to lawfully download it, but you would only be able to lawfully use it on an Apple-branded computer (which, by definition legally speaking, requires a computer that was legally manufactured by Apple).

Look up Apple Inc. v. Psystar Corp., a company that tried to get around Apple's EULA for this exact clause using every gymnastic of law imaginable. They lost multiple appeals, were charged millions in damages, and went bankrupt.

MacOS isn't the product, the hardware is.

> with MacOS you pay for the software when you buy the hardware

By that logic the normal people are still in the clear, as most OEMs bundle a Windows license with the prebuilts they sell.

> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-11-home/dg7gmgf0kr...

Says $139 for Windows 11 Home

Windows is pretty much shareware at this point. Unpaid-for copies will disable changing the background and show a nag screen, but will otherwise work fine.

More importantly - if you don't pay for HN, you are the product.

Sometimes it feels that way, given how many ads I wade through for the good stuff.

Is this true for Windows 11 pro or does it only apply to home? The article mentions home.

I've seen a number of pieces about privacy problems with Windows 11 but they've struck me as kind of odd. To me, Windows 10 was an awful privacy nightmare and Windows 11 is just more of the same. They're going to turn the screws on TPM requirements and press even harder on Microsoft accounts, but fundamentally it just seems like a continuation of the path things were already on.

It is fine to remind everyone of what is going on, but this war was lost 8 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFj8exxCj_M

I've got a macbook nearing end of life and frustration with apple (the company, not the hardware which I'm happy with) has been pushing me to consider windows. It's good to get these reminders of how smarmy Microsoft is. I think I'll probably grit my teeth and buy another mac

Go with Linux and don't look back. Preferably mint, which is quite similar to the Windows look. The only issue I've faced is MS Office, but that's what I have my Mac for.

Latest Mac (M2) hardware is just too good. My 2 year old desktop PC, which had top tier CPU, is now worse. It runs Linux but I can do the same stuff with Mac too. I even save with electricity bill by using Mac.

I agree too, but OP said he doesn't like Apple (for non technical reasons). I don't like them either, but M2 made me sell my soul to the devil.

Any reasons not to consider Linux laptops? I have exactly the same predicament as you and feel like I'm finally ready to hop into the light side (Linux is by far the best desktop os these days).

I should have clarified, I have an ubuntu machine I use for development. I use MS office and video conferencing a lot as well though so I need another machine for that.

My windows box can only collect data related to Steam and the games I play on it. I also keep it isolated from the rest of my network.

Windows has been relegated to a status of "toy OS" to me as I do all my real work and non-gaming play on Mac and Linux. Great job MS!

I've heard that if you block domains related to telemetry using the hosts file, Microsoft Defender will warn you that your security is compromised.

I'm still using Win10 (and don't plan to upgrade anytime soon, if ever) but that's not true on Win10. I use a great little utility called simplewall which has this functionality built in and I use MS Defender just fine with no warnings.

Is someone publishing a block list for this garbage that is compatible with PiHole or pfblockerng? Or has MSFT moved beyond these easy block methods?

Just think of all the people with disabilities who are using Windows right now, in banks, hospitals, the IRS, therapy, and government positions, with Microsoft slirping up all your data. All because Linux accessibility is too crappy to be useful for most people with disabilities, especially blind people. All your data, going all to Microsoft. Keep that in mind as y'all use and develop your Linux desktops.

This is seriously needs a gov regulation at this point.

Well well.. Anybody surprised?

Watching misinformation through misunderstanding and misconception start and then propagate through the internet in real time is both fascinating and terrifying.

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