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Comment by switch007 | Hacker News Reader

> Nowadays, the industry would very much like you to ditch your paper ticket in favour of a fancy mobile barcode one (or an ITSO smartcard2); not only do they not have to spend money on printing tickets but they also gain the ability to more precisely track the ticket’s usage across the network and minimise fraud.

And unsurprisingly only a subset of tickets are available on the apps. Therefore the government gets its “fare simplification” it’s so badly wanted, through the back door, in a sense, the harder it pushes mobile tickets

Eg rover tickets are not on the ticketing apps. These can be excellent value.

Edit: also the government very recently announced [0] they are to scrap return fares. This will without a shadow of doubt increase prices for a great many journeys.

[0] https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/end-of-the-line-for-ret...

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I dunno about the UK, but I think RFID readers might just be cheaper because they require so little maintenance.

I bought a single-use one-way subway ticket recently. When I got to the turnstiles, none of them had slots to swipe or insert the ticket.

Of course, it's 2023. You can tap the paper ticket as if you had a refillable or monthly pass, it has the RFID circuitry sandwiched between paper layers. No more mechanical moving parts which can break and slow down the rush hour commute.

I don’t know if they do this in the UK, but using apps also gives the government the ability to profit from breakage the same way gift card programs do. The last time I had a public transport app I had to maintain a balance that could expire. The place that implemented this system also prohibited all other forms of payment as a Covid measure, and for some reason hasn’t reverted that policy yet.

In London you can use a normal contactless debit or credit card or NFC payment on a phone for public transport. This is great for Londoners, and even better for visitors who don't need to figure out what they need to buy or how to top up a card.

I don't belive the ticket apps being discussed keep a balance, but I haven't used them myself.

I’ve seen that system in quite a few cities now. I’m was initially surprised to see it adopted, because breakage revenue can be enormous. But it’s common enough now that I find places using exclusively the old stored value cards to be outright contemptible.

Think about it from their shoes. Why would you actively spend resources to replace an existing "working" system to develop and implement a new and more efficient system which nets you less resources?

One reason could be to enable novel fare systems, like London has with its Oyster network.

You can travel around (scanning your contactless debit / credit card) without thinking about how much you’re paying, safe in the knowledge that the system caps your daily / weekly spend to predefined limits, essentially making it never more expensive than a daily / weekly travel card would be. The caps are automatically calculated for the zones you travel in.

It’s a very nice experience as a rider. Especially beneficial to visitors who can just scan through the gates as any Londoner would, no ticket purchase required.

As for the rationale to implement such a system — well, it’s ultimately a public service. All revenue generated is reinvested into the network, in London at least. The economic value of a fast, efficient, painless transit system that everyone uses, regardless of class or wealth, most surely outweighs any lost breakage revenue.

NYC really needs to get the tap to pay working for AirTrain at JFK. I’m not even mad about the ridiculous $8 fare (though that’s another issue) it’s the having to stand in line to purchase a paper card that I won’t use again until I return to the airport to go home.

I believe that since February 1st (so 4 days ago) you can also use contactless debit and credit cards for train travel throughout the entirety of the Netherlands. I think that most if not all regional public transport providers, for say bus/tram/metro, already support it as well.

Can't use it when you have a subscription though, so a lot of people here will still be using their plastic public transport cards for personal and work travels, including me, but it's nice to have the possibility at least.

https://ovpay.nl/en

Still OV-chipkaart is useful as it allows you to take OV-fiets.

Contactless debit cards from a bunch of countries aren't accepted on london underground. That makes it less good for visitors. They don't even publish a list - just some will refuse to work, and you have no way to know as a visitor till you try it.

For even more confusion, some contactless debit cards won't work the first time, but if you try them 5 mins later (presumably after the main office has done a test charge on the card), it then works fine.

Well, currently the single fare is often £0.20 less than the return fare, for historical reasons. Scrapping them seems like a good solution.

As already shown in this thread, even the employees don't understand the very complicated fare rules. My manager was very proud of winning a half hour long argument with a ticket inspector about the Conditions of Carriage, but most of us just want to buy a ticket and go.

Public transport exists to serve the public. If complicated return fares, while inefficient and perhaps annoying, ultimately better serve the public, then that is good reason for them to remain.

I know what will happen. We're at the stage of the PR spiel where they acknowledge there will be some losers but overall it "will benefit the majority". That will silence any critics. Then when it's being implemented, it'll turn to "we always knew there would be some winners and losers (dropping the "it will benefit the majority" part). Then a couple of years after the change, it will be: we regret how much it's affected a lot of people, but it's here now, and we're using all the extra revenue to invest in the railway. Like something out of Yes, Minister

Given the list of issues with our rail system currently, I'm not sure abolishing return fares should be high up on the list.

With mobile tickets I've also lost the ability to break my journey up (i.e. visit somewhere half way along a route without having to buy two tickets) which has increased the price of my journeys.

How have mobile tickets stopped this? Wasn’t it always against the rules, even if possible when the middle station lacked barriers?

No, this was always part of the rules - unless you have an Advance ticket. And as far as I know that is still the case.

I tried to use an off peak QR code ticket and it did not pass the gates and I was told I wasn't allowed to do it, the ticket rules did not mention it either.

It is possible the staff just didn't know about the break in journey rule, I was too tired to fight it at the time.

Our ticketing system is so incredibly complex, and train companies aren't always interested in educating their staff, so unfortunately very frequently the staff get it wrong

Yeah, it's still in the conditions of carriage (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%...) - Section 16. I don't think gate line staff are well trained on stuff like this though.

> You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

TIL, thanks!

On a related note, I found out the hard way that (some?) airlines don’t let you use a return flight if you missed the outbound leg.

Yeah, I missed my outbound Air Canada flight at LHR after my coach broke down and when I asked about getting a ticket for a later flight, the rep told me that they "weren't supposed to" sell returns if you weren't planning to use both legs even though they were cheaper than a single but she sold me one anyway, just told me to make-up a return leg and then just don't turn up!

Pretty bad really, I guess an example of where the theory of balancing the numbers doesn't match up with the reality that is obscene that they can gouge you for less service, I think it should ultimately be "admin overhead" + "flight(s)". Most people accept that a single can't always be half of a return but it should always be noticeably cheaper.

In my experience, travel between Europe and the US is particularly random. Sometimes, open jaw flights are perfectly fine in terms of pricing. Other times, I've had to jump through hoops of one sort or another to do a round-trip from a single city because one-way flights were so expensive relative to the round trip.

Yes, airlines will typically cancel the whole trip if you just don't show up for the outbound leg.

I have, on rare occasions, not shown up for the return flight because just buying a new one-way ticket for a new date/time was cheaper than rescheduling the existing return leg. I don't think you're actually supposed to do that either.

> Wasn’t it always against the rules

No. Many return fares explicitly allow a break of journey - especially non-advance fares.

It is the introduction of single-only fares which will have a greater impact than mobile fares.

Just do away with tickets and apps altogether and scan your national ID card.

Or give everyone a national fare allowance to boot, like the national subsidy for maintenance of roads and their other associated costs.

There isn't a national id card.

There is in lots of countries…

Not in the UK, which is the subject of discussion

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