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Comment by paulhauggis | Hacker News Reader

"and how they are coaching children on how to gamble"

Gambling is all around us.

When you market your product, you are putting money out there in the hopes that you will make more than you invested. If you are smart about it, it has better odds than Vegas, but it's still a gamble.

When I was a kid, I used to play a game called "Vegas Dream" for the NES. It had blackjack, poker, and slots. If anything, it showed me how easy it was to lose all of my money in a short amount of time (without actually losing any real money). I rarely ever gamble now..except in calculated risks (such as advertising and marketing).

Even if you banned all of these types of apps today, there are 100 more with gambling-like properties.

I would rather have my kid learn about the painful reality of gambling early on.

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and what happens to the children that don't learn that lesson because they don't understand the implications of gambling addiction?

It's not fair to compare a NES game to one which has been designed with gambling psychology at it's core - one that surpasses even the slot machines available to adults.

I guarantee you didn't need to delay gratification for 4 hours while waiting for additional coins. Nor did you have the option to spend real dollars (with zero chance of winning; now the house has 100% chance to win! you know they're loving that!) to get that gratification in an instant instead.

Would you rather your son or daughter be coked up in order to learn about the perils of drug use or is that different and something that makes sense to teach through observation?

I have no issue with these games being made to available to adults and I'd even support real money wagering but Apple need to reclassify these games as adult only and not as a "card game" which is "suitable for ages 12 and up".

"It's not fair to compare a NES game to one which has been designed with gambling psychology at it's core - one that surpasses even the slot machines available to adults."

"Vegas dream" had black jack and poker and all the rest of the games you would find at a casino. How is it any different?

"Nor did you have the option to spend real dollars"

How is a 12 year old going to spend real dollars? Where are the parents?

"Would you rather your son or daughter be coked up in order to learn about the perils of drug use or is that different and something that makes sense to teach through observation?"

It's different. Cocaine is physically addictive and can have real health effects. Something I don't ever want my kids touching.

Gambling is all about being able to manage risk..something you do almost every day. You can't ever be successful without some form of gambling. If you teach kids early, they will be able to recognize it and it will beneficial to their future.

Would you just put your kid in front of an iPhone and not watch them? We don't have enough responsible parents in this world. Too many parents use the iPhone (or computer or gaming system) as a baby sitting device or are too busy to actually parent them.

I don't have any data but I think it's safe to assume that people with gambling addiction problems are prone to play slots/pokies instead of black jack & poker (as in traditional poker while ignoring online poker).

We both accept parents have a responsibility to monitor their children's activities online but in reality, it doesn't always happen.

I can't place the blame solely on parents either when Apple guidelines state these games are suitable for ages 12 and up. You could almost forgive parents for taking Apple guidelines at face value.

The cocaine example isn't that different considering compulsive gamblers also have a disease. My point was that children don't need to experience something personally to learn it's a bad thing.

For you, gambling is about managing risk. For me, it's the occasional flutter for a bit of fun. Winning, fun etc has nothing to do with it for a compulsive gambler.

I don't have kids but when my girlfriend and I start a family, I'll do my best to prevent them from playing games such as this nor will I allow them to use these devices until much older when they won't require 24/7 supervision and some trust is established.

You're right that we don't have enough responsible parents in the world and if they want to gamble, it's their right to make such a decision. What I take issue with is companies such as Caesar's Entertainment taking advantage of this lack of parental supervision to line their coffers.

With Apple facilitating and taking a 30% cut of the earnings, they're complicit in such shenanigans.

I just wanted to add that there is a common ground solution here that doesn't involve removing such apps from the App Store while at the same time will minimise the harm done to children.

In a real casino, children are not allowed to play slots/pokies nor are they allowed in the vicinity of them. The fact parents are not even allowed to bring along their children while they play is an obvious sign that exposure to these machines do children harm whether they actively play or simply watch.

It seems to me it makes common sense for Apple to create an adult section in the App Store that requires a secondary password to access. That would at least prevent some children (who's parents don't monitor what they do) from accessing this type of material. There is little you can do and there are bigger issues at play for the children of parents who are allowed to access adult content after such features are in place but it would assist in protecting the majority IMO.

Of course, common sense approaches rarely work because people on the fringe of either side will either want gambling apps banned for adults as well or think it's the sole responsibility of the parents and therefore no changes should be made.

I don't know anyone that would classify slots as a "card game" and "suitable for ages 12 and up" so why is it acceptable for Apple to do this? The fact you can't win money doesn't change anything; players rarely have an edge in real casino games anyway. It's fucking worse than children playing slots in a real casino as far as I'm concerned.

Why does it always fall to those who stand to make no financial benefit either way to call for these changes to be made while Apple/Playtika/Caesars can take a fuck it approach until they are forced to change by which time large profits have been made and the damage done.

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