The Cost of Shadow Work
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I don't know what we can even do about this. Where's the government? They don't have my back. "Competition" is a non-solution. I have one other cable provider in my area and they have all the same anti-customer incentives as Xfinity. It's legimately criminal, though obviously not illegal, since we know who pays the folks who write the laws...
The government is concerned with more systemic issues. As an example, when there was $1.3 Billion dollars in harm across more than 11 million accounts, they stepped in with Wells Fargo: https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-order...
In the end I got the charge reversed, cold comfort, I was out a quarter hour...
I too feel like the person above you: my day is weighed down with doing tasks that either used to be part of what you were paying to get, and now have been outsourced to you (and lest we kid ourselves, the price didn't budge) or tasks which are effectively "hey, company, can you do your job?".
I'll reuse the example I used in an earlier thread along these same veins: my SO caught COVID. At the time, I only suspected it: so I ordered a test from Walgreens. This was done online, and the online flow told me: "we'll contact you when the order is ready for pickup". Great. Hours pass. I call in, and get the chatbot. I navigate its menus to "lookup order status", and input the information: "there is no order under that number" — fine, sure, lie to me. I try a few more things, and finally cave & ask for a human. Hold for 20 minutes for "we're experiencing above average call volume" (more lies) and we get a human: "oh, your insurance declined."
Like, okay Walgreens … let's say that's true: you decide to just blackhole my order, and gaslight me when I try to find it?
And further, now I have to get in contact with the insurance, since … they're not suppose to decline. Walgreens knows they're not supposed to decline, but instead of telling the insurer "that's some hot garbage", they foisted the job of getting the insurer to do their job onto me.
Nowhere, here, is anyone doing anything economically productive. The only person doing anything is me.
The test was paid for out of pocket.
It's an example, yes, but it's one I've been dealing with across companies, across the economy, for months? years?, has been getting worse, and is continuing to get worse. It no longer seems isolated to your usual bad actors like airlines who can't get planes from point A to point B to save their lives, it's everywhere.
Consumer protection laws, regulatory action, class actions (if we could! I.e.: more consumer protection laws…) is the systemic level fix to this nonsense.
> on your bill that takes a 15 minute phone call to fix.
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
It's never a 15 minute phone call.
Why do people keep telling me this? I'm only going by what OP said. Tell them they were lying when they said they were on the phone for a quarter hour :)
> ...or I give up some of my valuable time to call them and go through the hell of phone customer service, a 10-15 minute commitment minimum.
Anecdotally, I find the 15 minute time frame to be the minority of the calls. But, 15 minutes is not a trivial amount of time, especially if that need comes in the middle of doing something else important.
Edit: I see you're other comment where you were referring to their one particular instance but everyone else is talking about the general problem.
A COVID test has substantially fewer 0s on the pricetag, but that's the death by a thousand paper cuts that the article describes. It'd be nice to exchange money for service.
The line between this and Wells Fargo is much thinner than you think. Nobody has managed to prove actual malice at the board level at Wells. A company like Xfinity is likely prioritizing bugs by revenue. As a result, bugs that result in overcharging will be fixed last, if ever. It is unrealistic targets, crappy policies, and bad incentives all the way down. The only way to actually make them care would be fines which would move it up the revenue list.
Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- should just send a letter and go directly to your Attorney General's office if the letter isn't acknowledged with the issue resolved within 30 days. It takes about two minutes, almost never fails, and creates a much larger burden for the corporation.
I never sit on hold, and the letter takes about 2 minutes to write.
The engagement with the AG's office does fire off internal processes that scale linearly, involve expensive labor, and are treated as urgent. If even 10% of customers did this it would result in some exec's attention.
I can send a letter if it will do something but I can't convince 10% of the population to send a letter.
I've sent messages to government offices and never got anything but a canned response and no action.
Verizon bill for unreturned equipment (didn't ask for it, told them I was leaving it on my doorstep and not taking delivery, it disappeared, heard back a year later with a fee).
TMobile bill.
An incorrect water bill.
A car dealership lying to me.
Issues with one of those "order for ipad" airport places mentioned in the article (same issue: never received my food).
Medical bill from an urgent care for some trivial thing that they told me they wouldn't charge me for.
Some interest on a student loan that accrued because their billing system messed up.
A bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering.
I always just send a written letter and if I don't get a check in 30 days go to the AG. Works every time. Fixing their petty crime is not my problem.
Dear _,
I am writing regarding [describe problem].
The appropriate resolution to this issue is [describe solution].
[Usually the solution is cash; if it is cash:] You may credit this to the form of payment you have on file, or by sending me a check at [address].
If you have any questions, you may call me at [phone number] at [time when I'm always free on a weekday during working hours in all us timezones].
I will contact my AG's office if I do not hear back from you in 30 days.
Thanks, [Name]
Mail it.
All state AG offices have a form for consumer complaints on their website. Usually it's very easy to find. Don't overthink it. Mention the letter in your AG complaint, include a copy and the date that you sent it. They will contact the business and start a resolution process. Usually you'll hear back in a week or so.
You can free-form your own letter, though that might delay things somewhat from the AG's office, though the business / countereparty will typically get on their game quickly.
DDG "consumer complaint" + <YOUR_STATE_HERE> should work.
E.g., top ten states by population, covering over half the US population, first result is the corresponding state's AG consumer affairs office:
CA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumert+complain+california> gives <https://www.dca.ca.gov/consumers/complaints/index.shtml>
TX: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+texas> <https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/consumer-protection>
FL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+florida> <https://www.stateofflorida.com/consumer-complaints/>
NY: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+new+york> <https://dos.ny.gov/file-consumer-complaint>
PA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+pennsylvania> <https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/submit-a-complaint/consumer-...>
IL: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+illinois> <http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplai...>
OH: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+ohio> <https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Individuals-and-Families...>
GA: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+georgia> <https://consumer.georgia.gov/>
NC: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+north+carolina> <https://ncdoj.gov/file-a-complaint/consumer-complaint/>
MI: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=consumer+complaint+michigan> <https://www.michigan.gov/ag/complaints>
> How do you find the right person and address to send it to in order to get it read or maybe get a response, not just insta chucked?
Meh. They almost always ignore the first letter. The important point is that the AG's letter makes it to the right audience. If there's a legal dept send it there. Otherwise just whatever address you can find.
Of course, if everyone did this, then hopefully it would also cause the company to fix their issues before it got to the point of overwhelming the AG's office. But doesn't it sound a little... centrally planned? communist? ... to need to tattle to the AG for every minor complaint you have with a company? I mean, great that it works, but it seems like a broken and unsustainable system.
You are correct. Capital adapts. Class war is a dialectic. This is just a micro tactic. Draw blood, retreat, regroup.
> petty complaints
Petty crime is still crime.
I've used things like Rocket Money, but their approach is to renegotiate bills and skim a little off the top. This could be more of a feeder for law firms that specialize in class action. Or, maybe it would have an in-house legal team.
If the hold queue is more than a few minutes, you can't get the issue resolved, etc.:
1. Put it in writing.
2. Write your government's consumer advocate (usually the state AG's office in the US).
It's possible to escalate above and beyond this, but these two steps alone are often startlingly effective.
Once month I got the bill and it was nearly 50% higher with no explanation. After contacting them they informed that where I was supposed to be receiving credits was in fact getting additional charges.
Either Spectrum employees are dumber than the average 5 year old or this was an intentional act done in retribution.
Well govt is also busy in developing more self service solutions. Anything from Airport, fast food, grocery stores, banks they are putting the work on to customers which previously provider would have done.
Beside I think people are really excited about idea that technology and automation will fix human interaction problem. So that's what they are getting.
You can just submit a credit card chargeback in a few seconds online, and they will go through the rigamaroll. Likely that no further action will be needed on your part
Like hiring janitorial services instead of employing janitors, every decoupling of the system adds overhead. The people who could be recognized for being a good employee and offered other better positions are now often rigidly locked into low-wage labor permanently because no companies are willing to train people.
This is part of what is causing the rapidly rising inequality and college expenses. Many jobs that can be easily taught through apprenticeships and progressive responsibilities are being outsourced to colleges and universities, which were never meant to be all-encompassing career skills schools.
It also weakens companies' social contract, leading to even worse stewardship.
Example: I met a person who started in a job like janitor and ended his career setting up video calls for the CEO. Seems likely that 50+ year career arc was possible because of employee training and all those jobs being in-house.
I've attributed it to the formalization/metricization of every aspect of businesses. MBA-itis. "If you can't measure and control it eliminate it."
Similarly, if you believe a company's only job is to provide shareholders profits, this is the natural end game.
In addition to the different tax treatment labor law regulations are significantly different between those two types of staff with the contractor/external vendor being much less restrictive than for employees.
I haven't seen many details in most news stories about layoffs in the tech industry regarding contractors, but I suspect that the number of contractors terminated is significant also as those positions tend to be trimmed before employees.
The lenders and the schools worked hand-in-hand to ratchet up the price tags and the size of the loans for college educations. All their incentives were to go up up up! The additional revenue to the schools didn't go to a better education, of course ... it largely went to administrative salaries. The administrative budget at US colleges has grown unbelievably while the instructional budget per-capita has been flat, driven down by the "adjunctification" of teaching staff.
I mean it in the way that many people who might never have gone to college are now expected to do to not have a minimum-wage job forever.
https://www.amacad.org/publication/public-research-universit...
I think/talk about this all the time. I think there are some non-consumer examples of this also. For example, my wife is a Physician Assistant and spends most of her time entering information into the health system. While she's seeing a patient - she has to wait many seconds for the next screen to come up before she can continue talking to the patient. She has to to keep up with and know that system in addition to knowing medicine. But if she had someone else doing this for her. Maybe even taking raw notes and then entering them in right after - she'd free up her time for actual medicine.
Another example is the fact that my boss spends a lot of his time doing non-technical managerial work. But if they hired just one more person in our department to just do that work.
Basically what I'm saying is that Medical and IT people should all have assistants.
I doubt the math works out well for lower-paid employees that are also required to juggle all kinds of tangential shit these days ( sorry :-( ) but I think it might for even mid-pay developers.
It turns out that if you actually keep track of both time and its value, secretarial jobs are a good bargain.
Just look at Intel, who recently slashed salaries so they could afford to pay a larger dividend. How do you think they'd react if you asked them to provide every engineering manager with a full-time assistant?
At some point, dealing with the system is somebody's job. It used to be slow on paper, now it's slow on a computer. Your wife is being asked to do that because the physician has offloaded that to her. Maybe she can offload it to somebody else, but then that person isn't freed up for actual medicine.
She doesn't assist the doctor - she is a provider in her own right.
In fact, there is talk about changing PA to mean "Physician's Associate" instead.
One article I found: https://www.ama-assn.org/practice-management/scope-practice/...
Edit: here's another article https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/03/1059916...
I have used what I think is a pretty good clinical system where you have a free text box but it has something like code auto complete so clinical coding is taken care of and data like physical obs gets stored in a structured way so it can generate charts.
When I was a scribe, our pay came directly out of the physicians pay so if they were making $100 per hour without a scribe, with a scribe they took home $85. I guess theoretically a physician could pay their scribe whatever they wanted to entice them to stick around longer than a year or two but I have never heard of this being done.
The key difference between a manager and a secretary is power. My manager can have me fired, a secretary probably can't (unless I really deserved it). By empowering the people handling bureaucratic bloat as their full time job, you incentivize the creation of more bloat.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha...
On top of that, there's a bunch of, IDK, "shadowy" work, where non-healthcare orgs have to spend money to deal with, especially, health insurance. Lots of HR work, extra work for various government employees, all that crap.
What's crazy is that our system's already wildly more expensive than those of our peers, without even accounting for all of that. The whole thing's a huge drag on both human and economic wellbeing in our country.
Here are two real examples of the mess we've collectively created. It will be painfully stupid to read, and it's filled with people in jobs that simply shouldn't exist in the first place. They aren't bad people, but every minute they spend at work is deadweight loss to the economy, and then they use up OUR time on top of it.
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I (1) got laid off in September, and switched to COBRA coverage on my previous health plan. The HR folks (2) at my old company worked with an insurance broker (3) to both set up the health plan (4), vision plan (5), dental plan (6), and set up the COBRA plan (7) on different companies.
I set up auto-pay with the COBRA middle-man (7) whose contribution to the process appears to be collecting $1800 from me every month, splitting it up, and sending parts of $1800 to the three different insurance companies.
Issue 1: One month in, we tried to schedule an appointment with the dentist (8). The dentist told us the dental insurance said we didn't have coverage. Neither insurance nor the COBRA plan would return my calls. I had to talk to HR at my old company and sic the insurance broker on them. She came back more than a month later and said that both companies agree that the money was sent and I now had coverage for the previous month. I pointed out that retroactively saying I had coverage was completely useless since I had been unable to USE the coverage in real time. She went back and negotiated a reimbursement for two months coverage. The dental insurance carrier would send a check to my old employer who would then send it to me. This wasted the time of at least a half dozen people, most of all mine.
Issue 2: In early December, my wife had appendicitis that lead to an ER visit(9), CT scan, emergency surgery, and a 5-day hospital stay. 2 weeks later she was back at the ER with significant pain, and got another CT scan. Thank god for COBRA, right? lol.
When we got home from the second visit, I found a letter in the mailbox from the COBRA company saying that the monthly premium for december medical insurance had gone up by $100, and I would have to pay more to retain my coverage. This letter was dated a week after the month started, so I couldn't have paid the correct amount without inventing time travel. I was given until the end of an un-specified "grace period" to pay. They then *retroactively* cancelled all 3 insurance plans a few weeks later, but kept the $1800.
I didn't know this happened - I had just started a new job whose medical benefits kicked in 3 hours too late for us, and thought I had another couple weeks to figure out what was happening. Meanwhile, I got separate bills from the surgeon (10), anesthesiologist (11), and radiologist (12) for trivial amounts. I then got an $8000 bill from the ER, which included no indication (other than the amount) that my insurance coverage had retroactively lapsed between them checking my coverage and submitting their claims. The medical insurance never notified me it was being cancelled, and the website implied I had never had coverage in December.
I contacted everyone and after hours on the phone finally got hold of the COBRA company, who will process a grace period extension over the next two weeks, at which point the ER and all other providers can have their office staff re-submit claims and then bill me - which I will have to pay on different online portals except for the ones where I can only mail or pay by phone.
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This is insanity. 12 different entities, many of which had multiple people actively involved. US healthcare costs are the highest in the world because every bullshit job creates an equal and opposite bullshit job, and they all also use up unpaid and undocumented patient time.
What's not measured is that there's increasing frustration and poor service. The edge cases are not covered, because the edge cases are not profitable. I expect we will see demand destruction in certain sectors if this continues. Folks will just not buy products when they cannot be assured that there will be service alongside it.
In other products I can only assume there has been a similar race to the bottom. Why should I pay up for some service if it's a roll of the dice that I will be treated any better? Unless I really trust a brand, and I can't know, I 'm going to end up differentiating on price alone.
But I'm seeing a lot of big corpo were paid $X for service S, and it was never rendered. Customer wants their money back, corporation doesn't want to give it.
In any other context, we'd call that "highway robbery", but for some reason for corporations, its fine. The article gives an example of it: ordered a coffee, it never came, no refund.
Regulatory agencies need to bring the ban hammer down on this, or forced arb. needs to be outlawed so that the people can class action it, or both.
Auto companies are relearning why it does not make sense to outsource anything that a customer sees or touches. That is your profound knowledge and any supplier that is incentivized to maximize cost per unit will not care one bit about providing anything more that the minimum needed to get the contract. The customer suffers until one automaker breaks the mold and start to differentiate themselves by building in house and having a tighter feedback loop to provide the best quality.
Here's how it went down at Tesla straight from the horse's mouth. I remember the skeptics thought he was crazy for bringing this in house but it seems to have worked out. [1]: https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg?t=357
This has happened to me on no less than a half dozen occasions. Those airport kiosks are a class action suit waiting to happen, IMO.
This reminds me of weird tip-related hijinx I experienced recently. First, also at an airport, the credit card machine asked me to leave a tip at one of those retail "news" stores. This seems like an overreach. Retail was traditionally a tip-free experience and the prices at those stores are outrageous already.
In another incident, my restaurant bill included an automatic 20% "service fee" (for a party of 2). We had to ask if this was the equivalent of a tip and going to the staff or what (turns out it was). I totally support paying restaurant staff a living wage and eliminating tips entirely, but this seems somewhat underhanded. Sure I was planning to tip already, but calling it a "service fee" sends a very muddled message. It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
Hm. This has been pretty common in larger cities for a while, mostly because the service staff actually need the tips to like not be literally homeless. I can see how this would be off-putting if you're not aware of the practice, though.
> It would have been more transparent to just make the food cost 20% more.
They don't do this because people misunderstand the total price or at least misperceive it.
> Finally, as a general observation, the move paying (and tipping) electronically makes me question if the waitstaff are getting 100% of these digital tips or the employer is keeping some/all of it.
I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
This is fucked up on its face. They should be making $15/hr or whatever the living wage is in the area (probably more) and tips should be on top of this. How did tipping go from a bonus to something someone needs to survive?
Edit:
> I'm pretty sure there are tax/fraud implications if they call it a tip or service fee and then pocket the cash. But yeah it's not like wait staff typically have tons of negotiating power.
If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed. I'm not sure how a worker could confirm they were paid out fairly without independently keeping track of every customer's bill for the night. This is complicated even more when there is tip sharing between "front" and "back" of house.
I hope I'm wrong though.
[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/doordash-settles-lawsuit-fo...
Regardless, that ship sailed a long time ago. Restaurants have tried the "tip in price" model. It doesn't work; homo economicus is a lie. Consumer behavior is pretty well understood on this question. Remember that if the restaurant goes under then everyone loses their jobs anyways.
The only viable solution that ensures decent pay and also keeps the business viable is to implement it as "mandatory tipping".
> If a company as large and with as many workers as DoorDash was able to get away with it for over a year[1], I'm sure that there are small businesses out there doing it unnoticed.
Agreed. But tip theft happens regardless. I don't think the "mandatory tip" model makes it either harder or easier. At the end of the day most people pay with credit and the owner of the restaurant owns the till that counts out that tips.
I'm not saying that this situation is ideal; I'm just saying: what's the alternative that actually works?
After reading another comment on this thread about being overcharged by Xfinity, I decided to go see about my Xfinity account. Just trying to view my bill, I was constantly faced with blank white pages loading and loading, on a gigabit connection it took me on average of 5 seconds to load every page and about a minute or two of waiting on pages and refreshing pages to deal with errors before I could view my bill.
And that's one of the major problems I see everywhere, especially in healthcare. Not only do you have to perform this "shadow work", you are given a bare minimum interface to perform it through. Like for crying out loud how much money would it take for a healthcare site to let me log in and browse around to view my health plan without going to 10 redirects, 3 layout shifts, and 30 seconds of loading.
Technically, every minute I'm on hold is a benefit to the corporation. I'm not wasting their resources. Imagine if you were paid, something like minimum wage, to wait on hold. Suddenly there's a real incentive to quickly resolve problems.
Turn implicit problems into explicit ones and you'll be amazed at how quickly the explicit problems disappear.
We just saw a multi year effort to enact right to repair get destroyed by the stroke of a pen in NY state. There seems to be little to no hope.
Personally, I kind of like that at my place of work we're expected to (sometimes) clean the coffee cups, organize our own office party, haul boxes of old documents to the shredder and so on. I dread the day that a manager will realize that they can squeeze another little bit of productivity out of us by hiring an assistant for this kind of stuff, it would make me feel even more like a cog in the machine.