Did Ancient Egypt have a pigeon problem? | Hacker News Reader

Did Ancient Egypt have a pigeon problem?

atlasobscura.com

34 pointsdiodorus22 comments

The article has a lot of words without much substance. It postulates that Amarna 'may have had' a pigeon problem because they depicted pigeons in their wall art. With the same logic, entire Egypt should have had a 'crocodile problem' along with having 'ibis problem' and 'cat problem'. Also the following bit explains how a specific cultural bias makes them reach that conclusion:

> But unlike modern urban landscapes in which pigeons are often considered “rats with wings” or vectors of disease, if the city did have feral pigeons, they probably weren’t viewed as a problem.

This thing of considering pigeons 'rats with wings' does not exist in Mediterranean countries. People think that any major plaza should have pigeons. 'Rats with wings' seems to be an British or Angloamerican thing. Its no wonder the Egyptians did not think the same as well, considering how they were Mediterraneans. Raising pigeons, having the most beautiful, fastest or rare pigeon, pigeon contests etc are still big in the Mediterranean. Not things which any people who think that pigeons are 'rats with wings' (whatever that means) would be interested in.

It looks like the author(s)' cultural biases caused them to reach overreaching conclusions...

if the city did have feral pigeons, they probably weren’t viewed as a problem

Jesus, it's clear you never had to deal with pigeons in any form.

My university department was in a tower building, which of course attracts pigeons, and during pigeon nesting season you better leave all windows closed, else you will have to deal with mad pigeons looking for nesting spaces. Worse if the window was left open overnight, then it's a mad pigeon and pigeon shit everywhere.

Even worse when the pigeons start nesting - the nasty birds carry fleas and mites, and once the last fledgling is gone, the parasites will come in in search of new hosts.

There is historical evidence for this view. The Jewish War by the Greco-Jewish historian Josephus includes a description of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the author goes into detail to describe the anti-pigeon devices on the building, because no one likes feral pigeons, and pigeonshit affects marble, and the temple was all whitest marble.

Egypt can't have been different. Fuck the pigeon.

Can you link that section from Josephus?

It's War, 5, 222 - "From its summit protruded sharp golden spikes to prevent birds from settling upon and polluting the roof."

Golden pigeon spikes - Herod really spared no expense!

Thanks!

> Worse if the window was left open overnight, then it's a mad pigeon and pigeon shit everywhere.

That problem exists in Mediterranean countries too. Buildings put some measures in their roofs, on the ledges etc. But still nobody considers pigeons as pests, call them 'rats with wings', leave aside anything like 'exterminating them'. Same goes with your Biblical reference - in a Mediterranean country, they had a pigeon problem with the !building!, and they took measures. They didnt try to exterminate pigeons in the land, they did not even consider them any kind of 'pest'. They didnt even try to remove them from plazas, where they historically inhabited and still inhabit.

The flying rat thing is a misunderstanding. Wherever you have pigeon overpopulation, you have crazy people. Feeding the birds is a behavior that some people down down a rabbit hole.

Pigeon lives consist of eating and reproducing in that order. If you see massive squadrons of pigeons, some lunatic is dumping bags of seed every week within a few hundred yards of where you see them.

People regularly go to the plazas to feed the pigeons in the Mediterranean. Also, some people keep pigeons in the neighborhood. (may not be allowed in upscale neighborhoods, depending). And I dont think the 'flying rats' thing is something specific to 'crazy pigeon ladies'. I have seen it in English literature too frequently.

We didn't have pigeon overpopulation, but the birds were still problematic due to their behaviour. (The shortage of available nesting space massively contributed.) It was like with Canada geese in America, even without overpopulation - if the habitat is suitable they come and shit everywhere. Worse when a pair leads goslings.

i've heard the flying rats thing in the US, and it was clearly a purposefully dark humor joke. in the context, i'm pretty sure they meant big cities have rats and pidgeons. (?)

always thought it was about how many diseases they transmit

>This thing of considering pigeons 'rats with wings' does not exist in Mediterranean countries. People think that any major plaza should have pigeons. 'Rats with wings' seems to be an British or Angloamerican thing.

Thinking on this, in hebrew there is no distinction for pigeon and dove, i think in spanish also there is none.

> Thinking on this, in hebrew there is no distinction for pigeon and dove, i think in spanish also there is none.

Nor is there in science, as both refer to the 300-plus species of birds in the Columbidae family. "Dove" entered English through Nordic languages, "pigeon" entered English from French. Only colloquial English tends to categorize them by size.

In German too. Pigeon==Taube==Dove

Lots of animals can be simultaneously prized as pets/livestock and despised in their feral state. Look at any city that has serious numbers of stray dogs or cats, or the way places like Texas handle their wild boar (feral pig) population.

The Mediterranean loves their huge population of stray dogs and cats.

Love and Indifference are two very separate things.

The amount of times I've seen a litter put in a sack and either thrown into the trash or a river, is not less than 1.

And in many countries anyone who does that would get lynched. Literally. Even before the local public prosecutor acts to persecute them under the laws that protect animals...

> pigeons were probably one of the first animals to be domesticated by humans

Pigeons have certainly left their tracks in informatics, giving us both the pigeonhole principle (theory) and RFC 1149 et.al. (systems).

Apparently you can use a grain silo as a pigeon abatement device[1] :-)

[1] https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1961784/bizarre-footage-shows-...

Who knows how many pyramids were ruined by pigeon guano.

Perhaps those very pigeon droppings were interfering with their analysis of celestial bodies and helped them discover cosmic background radiation...it could happen twice [0]

[0] https://astronomy.com/news/2018/09/pigeon-poop-and-strange-s...

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