A Fix-It-Yourself Trend for Appliances (1983) | Hacker News Reader

A Fix-It-Yourself Trend for Appliances (1983)

nytimes.com

37 points1970-01-0150 comments

My 2000-era Bosch washing machine failed. I opened it up and it had a huge circuit board which was pretty easy to figure out and repair. I imagine these days it would just have a few power transistors and an inscrutable ASIC. Sigh.

BTW all my appliances from 20 years ago (washer, dryer, dishwasher, pool heater, fridge, oven, stove..) are still going strong. I've only had to fix the washer and microwave.

I've kept alive my Fisher & Paykel dish drawers and double oven from 2004. I've even retrofitted improvements they made to the models during their production run when a part has failed and they've sold me the improved part. The oven was fun. I had to build an exact-height dolly to remove it from my cabinet to work on it:

https://ibb.co/yP05P1j

https://ibb.co/5Lxqc3N

But after that it was easy to swap parts. These aren't exactly high tech appliances. :-)

None of my other 2004 appliances have survived. The Trio fridge failed at 16 years and it was in the closed system, so not worth paying someone to fix and I don't have the necessarily refrigeration system skillset. A top-load Maytag washing machine also failed at about 16 years. The bottom seal gave up the ghost. I probably could've fixed that but I really wanted to redo my entire laundry room anyway so upgraded to a new HE model and matching electric dryer (previous dryer was gas). Those are now 4 years old and have so far been trouble free.

I'm genuinely curious: Have you compared their efficiency levels with newer appliances?

I have not. I suspect the fridge would be a good upgrade, but probably not the others.

Even if efficiency had improved, the cap ex of replacing it would probably take a long time to pay off.

I've monitored the electricity usage of the original 30yr old fridge my house has. It uses about 980kwh a year with today's energy prices costing about $400. If I got a new generic fridge ($630) with the energy star rating of 332kwh a year, that would save a whopping $265 a year. That's a 2.5yr break even. If you get a fancy fridge costing double the price and using double the energy it doesn't make as much sense

2.5year break even seems pretty fantastic actually. I did the math on replacing my boiler and it was something like between 12-15 years to pay back.

And that's not even considering the cost of being less repairable.

I was at a mini-lecture about how to save energy in small houses, and the lecturer stated that a 10 year old fridge uses 2X the power of a modern one. For a 15-year old fridge that goes up to 3X.

I have not researched this to verify but have no reason to doubt it.

>I imagine these days it would just have a few power transistors and an inscrutable ASIC

That just make an it easier to replace with an ESP32 and flashing OpenWashingMachine

Does openwashingmachine really exist?

EDIT: found https://github.com/topics/washing-machine?l=c%2B%2B&o=asc&s=..., https://github.com/stav98/Washing-Machine, https://github.com/narenakash/IoT-and-Smart-Laundry-using-On..., https://github.com/tailsu/miele-brain

git hub actually has some washing machine repos.

Man I love open source

curious if these are mostly circuit diagrams or also contain dimensioned engineering drawings for components/pieces?

A couple of weeks ago I was fixing my LG ventless dryer which had a TE3 error. TE3 is coded as a thermistor error.

I encountered a problem where the plastic faceplate wouldn't come off as easy as the YouTube videos made it seem. It turns out, my version of dryer was rare as it was only manufactured for a short period of time so no online materials were available.

I turned to LG's support team. Their solution was to send me the Google search result for "How to repair LG thermistor" (or similar basic query). When I pressed further for the service manual for my model, they defaulted to trying to route me to a service center because the work could be dangerous. They refused to offer any support which would allow me to work on the dryer myself.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have this policy in place. But as an electrical engineer who's designed products and installed home automation systems in the past, it was incredibly frustrating.

I had an LG TV that failed under warranty and when I contacted support they sent me a link to an unaffiliated third party pay-per-minute website that immediately asked for my credit card to speak to "Hundreds of Experts about your Apple TV".

I also had them send out a certified repairman who first asked me for money even though it was covered under warranty followed by him telling me it was broken in a way not covered under warranty after just looking at the outside.

Both situations I had to escalate for weeks before I could get a repair. I don't buy LG anymore.

I just assume things I buy are expected to last however long the warranty is, and any extra is bonus, and if it fails, then buy a new one.

> I'm not saying they shouldn't have this policy in place.

Well I'm saying it, they shouldn't have that policy in place.

On most major appliances, the service manual is in a plastic pocket adhered to the inside of either the top panel or the rear panel of the machine. Worth checking for. Appliance repair companies don't have them either, they get them out of the pocket and hopefully remember to put them back.

back in the 1980s companies realized that by selling direct to consumer spare parts and giving manuals would increase their profits

in the 2000s apple realized that by disabling ANY repairability by anyone, even sometimes apple, they can increase their profits by forcing customers to just buy brand new full priced hardware with no other options.

In the 80s most electronics were not computer controlled, so changing a capacitor or mechanical part could not really be stopped. Today since software is such a critical aspect, they can deny repairs via software and anti-tampering tech.

Which I think we can all agree is fundamentally anti-consumer, and we should unify in a decision to discourage that behavior.

Personally, I don't think market pressure by responsible consumers is enough. Especially in a world where tech moves so fast and you don't get much choice in what device or service you use, it just has to be compatible with what someone else is already using. Therefore I think the only real solution is for us to agree on government regulation.

Now if only we had our govt's ears as tightly as these same corporations have their purse strings...

> in the 2000s apple realized that by disabling ANY repairability by anyone, even sometimes apple, they can increase their profits by forcing customers to just buy brand new full priced hardware with no other options

What was the lock in mechanism? Why didn't people just switch to windows?

Repairability isn't the only factor that goes into a purchase decision

Many did. Apple used to own audio and video production. A lot of studios use Windows now.

The amortized cost of the Apple device is less than the alternatives. “Forced”.

And the device’s value after 3y or whatever is pretty good because they have lots of parts to harvest for resale.

Source: have recouped 60-70% of my MacBook Air upgrade costs by parting out my old unit (not accounting for my time/expertise in taking it apart).

> What was the lock in mechanism?

being a hipster

I've been using Repair Clinic [1] to get parts to repair my major appliances. It's been great.

They often have material to help me get started, too.

[1] https://www.repairclinic.com/

I used a similar site to repair my dishwasher and ended up buying the part at a local appliance repair shop. They had one in stock and it was 20$ less than online and the guy at the counter gave me helpful tips.

If there is an appliance repair shop in your city, call them before ordering online, you might be pleasantly surprised and you will help a local commerce!

I thought I'd save a few bucks by looking up the part I needed on repairclinic and then buying it on Amazon. I got a clearly knockoff part that was also physically broken.

I just buy the parts from repairclinic now. They have a nice website, the parts are OEM/genuine, and they provide a lot of helpful info. That is worth something, and they deserve to get paid for their efforts.

Amresupply.Com is my goto in Canada.

Same. This website is a great resource. I fully disassembled my (less than 7 years old!) Samsung front-load dryer to replace the drum belt at one point and the heating coil at another point by using this website and it's videos. Much easier and cheaper (yes, I do value my time...didn't take long) than having to find a repair person, schedule a house call, etc etc... I just busted out a couple common tools and did it myself. Highly recommended for DIY repair.

I interned with General Electric as an MRI field engineer (repair/install/maintenance) and some people would talk negatively about the intellectual capacity of the appliance (and other) field staff. For the average HN user I'd assume they'd be able to work on any appliance or MRI machine fine given the appropriate resources and documentation.

edit word

edit: i've also done residential work for a software engineer before who did not know how to turn a phillips head screw - but he seemed like an extreme outlier

I spent better part of today by reading through service manuals of various test and measurement instruments. It is not that hard to assume that half of the content (eg. ridiculously detailed step by step procedures for doing obvious things) is there because of the expectation that the field repair staff cannot really think. One would ask whether general disappearance of component level schematics from such manuals in this century is not also caused by the same assumption.

It's sort of weird, from my engineering background i'm used to the expectation of being able to "derive" an answer from working with first principles. But that's not really how a lot of "technician" work is done - same for cargo cult programming. But suppose that's a benefit of modular/component based systems as you can just replace a part and expect it to "solve" a problem. There's a lot more stuff to it, though.

Wish fix-it-yourself was as strong now as then

Honestly, I've not found appliances particularly hard to repair. Granted I've shied away from always on internet/app requirements, but I've taken apart and repaired my dishwasher twice, my fridge twice and my washer once in the 7 years I've lived in this house. I've fixed roombas and repaired my upright vacuum cleaner too.

Most appliances are like building a computer as far as repairs. Figure out which part is not working, pull it out and put a new one in. Am I replacing ICs on it's mainboard? No, but you can but the whole mainboard on ebay for fairly cheap, and it's just some screws and clips to get to it.

I've also repaired my own HVAC three times, but that was using a multimeter and probably not for the common person.

Exactly, your basic appliances are actually quite simple. Usually one circuit board running the show, and some ancillary electronics to drive motors and such.

Your failure modes are usually "this module burnt out" or "the circuit board is dead". You replace the module and you're back in business.

Component level repair is generally impractical, as replacement boards are usually available at reasonable cost. I have done component level repairs on very old machines, or when the failure is obviously a small number of identifiable components.

I had a big window AC unit that was meant to cool the entire house, and the fan control circuit failed. Simple troubleshooting showed that all functions except for the blower fan work, so I pulled out the board and traced that circuit. There was a very conspicuous power device on a heatsink, clearly handling fan power. Order a new component from digikey, drop it in, and I fixed a $1000 machine for $5.

I think most people would be surprised to learn just how repairable things actually are. Not phones or other micro-miniaturized electronics, but pretty much everything else. Our appliances are built on an assembly line out of discrete modules hooked together. You can just replace modules until something works.

> Component level repair is generally impractical, as replacement boards are usually available at reasonable cost.

That has not been my experience. A power relay for oven elements blew on the main PCB of a very basic Kenmore oven I had. Very simple PCB, large TH components. I was quoted 300$ for a replacement PCB, which was more than the oven was worth at that point. I ended up having to solder in a new relay I was able to find online (in minimum 10X quantity).

Sell the rest for 10x the price each, but labelled specifically as the part for that model of oven.

> I think most people would be surprised to learn just how repairable things actually are.

True, but those are also the same individuals who would lack the knowledge, and willingness, to do what you did on your HVAC. They, instead, call their local HVAC contractor, and the service rep. who arrives declares that a "new unit" is necessary and so the old unit, which could have been repaired for $5, becomes a $2500 install of a new unit. Often, the contractor service folks do not even offer to do a "board swap", esp. if the unit is old enough that they no longer locally stock that particular board (even if the board is available otherwise from their next level up supplier), they just go straight to the "replace" solution.

Even the board-swap is a borderline scam. It’s probably the same component that fails that anyone with a 50w soldering iron could swap.

I’ve often wondered if they refurb it themselves, but a recent experience suggests not.

Had a gas fitter come in to replace a leaky water heater. I provided new unit and I was to dispose the old unit.

The fool cut off the copper cord to take it, but should have gone for the power vent it was attached to. I was planning on unbolting the power vent’s 8 bolts and selling it for ~$200. Now I gotta rewire one to sell that part.

Kinda surprised he didn’t take the brass fittings.

>Our appliances are built on an assembly line out of discrete modules hooked together.

Once.

Taking apart all the snap-together cosmetic stuff without breaking anything to get to the thing you need to replace can often be a toss up.

Youtube and eBay make this stuff really simple. In the last year or so I swapped a side mirror on my car, fixed a leak in my washing machine, fixed a stand mixer, and probably some other stuff using ebay parts and youtube tutorials.

And just being able to download service manuals is super handy. I had a post break in my side mirror a long time ago when my ex drove it into the garage door. I just downloaded the parts diagrams for it, found the broken part and ordered a replacement.

Dealer wanted $300 for the whole side mirror assembly and over $200 in labor to replace it. The post was on ebay with free shipping for like $25 and it took me like two hours to fix it.

Dealers and even most mechanics charge by “book time”, which is usually shop rate * how long it would take for someone doing the job their very first time.

Thankfully appliance makers tend to use mostly standard parts. A given pump for example would fit in a dozen different brands of washing machines.

I can't stress enough how glad I am to have discovered north.pl as they're a rock-solid supplier of every goddamn appliance part in existence. Wonder what the equivalent is for other countries.

> The number is 800-253-1301, except in Michigan, Alaska and Hawaii, which have separate numbers.

Hawaii makes sense, Alaska... kind of makes sense? But wonder why Michigan had it's own dedicated line

Whirlpool is headquartered in Michigan. This predates my telephone-using career, but my guess is that they published a local number that saved them paying the 800 fees for Michigan customers. Either those customers were fine with making (& paying for) a local call, or perhaps there was some other within-state free calling product they used for them.

(It's also the period when MCI was challenging AT&T's monopoly - possibly both were able to sell 800 numbers and Whirlpool was splitting their business for some reason. But I think the former is more likely.)

Good call, I bet using a local number is the reason

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