Beauvais Cathedral | Hacker News Reader

Beauvais Cathedral

en.wikipedia.org

49 pointsHooke22 comments

Good example of Chesterton's Fence: Lateral iron supports between the flying buttresses: it is not known when these external tie rods were installed. The technology would have been available at the time of the initial construction, but the extra support might not have been considered necessary until after the collapse in 1284, or even later. In the 1960s, the tie rods were removed; the thinking was that they were ungraceful and unnecessary. However, the oscillations created by the wind became amplified, and the choir partially disassociated itself from the transept. Subsequently, the tie rods were reinstalled, but this time with rods made of steel. Since steel is less ductile than iron, the structure became more rigid, possibly causing additional fissures.

In this case, a fence plus a bit of luck. It's unlikely they knew at installation that iron was more suitable than a more rigid steel due to second-order effects.

The longevity of the original design alone argues for not messing with it, whether or not the original builders knew what they were doing.

Yeah, it's a good example of lindy

yah but chesty's fence is about what it does not the reasoning behind it being made. if someone makes a fence to keep out ghosts and it keeps out wolves instead, the second part is what you need to figure out before you tear it down.

> if someone makes a fence to keep out ghosts and it keeps out wolves instead, the second part is what you need to figure out before you tear it down.

The problem is how long do you keep researching? What if your diligent research eventually discovers the wolf effect, but that whole time the fence was also a massive danger because it provided no means of fast egress in the event of a fire?

Then you tear it down? It's about how you shouldn't assume something is pointless because you don't immediately see the purpose, not an edict for open-ended conservatism. I was pointing out that "the original intent" and "the current purpose" aren't necessary the same, but you're still stuck alone with your own judgement for the rest.

My point is that the proposal that the default should always be to leave things the way they are (which is the whole point of the Chesterton’s fence principle) is not a good general principle, because if you currently have very little understanding of the situation, “the way things currently are” could just as easily be extremely dangerous.

then argue with chesteron about it lol not me

In the 1920s there was a plan going around to build an episcopal cathedral in Seattle, WA. Construction started in 1928, but when the stock market crashed in 1929 they ran low on funds. So they finished the crossing, hurriedly built some walls around it, and created what some call a "holy box" rather than a traditional cathedral. It's known as St Mark's Cathedral; worth a visit if you're in the area and you're interested in cathedrals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mark%27s_Episcopal_Cathedr...

Sounds as horrid as the cathedral they built in Rouen (to refocus the discussion on France, you went a bit off course) on the location of Joan of Arc's british stake.

It's as if the English had come back again and build something that fit their (usual lack of) taste as yet another insult to Joan :D

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Sainte-Jeanne-d%... I think the idea is that it should look like a flame.

For a second I thought this was gonna be the brutalist cathedral in royan. I like that one fairly well, it's wild in person.

Whatever that is, it's not English.

This sort of post-war concrete church where generally build with the interior in mind. Look at the photographs of the inside, with the stained glass of the previous church.

Thanks for posting this. Based on your post, I jumped a train from Paris and spent the day tooling around Beauvais (charming city!) and caught the 1100 Mass. it was about 30° inside so a record for the coldest service I’ve ever attended.

When I saw the picture, my first though was of the one in Le Mans: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187195-d50581...

In my cartoon understanding of physics, it boggles the mind that these things wouldn't just collapse into a pile of rocks.

The comparison with the previous cathedral, the Basse Œuvre - which is still there - is astonishing. In this photo, that's the tiny-looking red-tile-roofed building on the left: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cath%C3%A9drale_Sain...

It really shows how building technology had advanced in just a few centuries.

This was fab and thanks for posting it. Unless you've been in one of these gothic cathedrals, it's hard to imagine the impact that the architecture has -- both inside and out. You can definitely see that the purpose was to communicate the idea of something higher and grander than mankind. They're a fabulous commentary on the power of architecture is general.

I've visited Notre Dame, Sainte-Chapelle, and Chartres and now Beauvais is on my bucket list!

I was there earlier this year, lots of it was under construction but we still got to see the astronomical clock.

I visited it twice when going to/from the airport. It was well pre-COVID, probably 2017 or 18.

It was heavily under works, it was interesting to see huge iron and wooden horizontal poles supporting the columns and walls.

I did not know it was still worked on, this list be a massive renovation.

Reminds me of the final level of Serious Sam: The 2nd Encounter. Love that game.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com