Long Covid is keeping significant numbers of people out of work, study finds | Hacker News Reader

Long Covid is keeping significant numbers of people out of work, study finds

nytimes.com

73 pointslxm168 comments

This will be extremely interesting to see play out. Unless I'm mistaken, there isn't a "testable" marker to determine/backup if people are still experiencing Covid symptoms. Insurance companies aren't going to want to play nice for both treatment and disability payouts, but the number of people with the condition is likely too large to sweep under the rug as might normally occur.

I have no idea how things will go, but I'm guessing it'll get ugly before it gets better.

It seems like if our society had UBI (Universal Basic Income) we wouldn't have to worry so much over cases like this - people would be able to get by, it wouldn't be a crisis for so many individuals.

Yup! But here in the USA it's all about profits baby!

What's the control for this, though? We're talking about a conjecture that there is a non-specific, undetectable condition affecting millions of people to the point that they are unable to work. Who pays for UBI if anyone can claim it?

The basic idea of UBI is that everyone claims it. That's why it's universal!

I clarified the "claim" elsewhere in this thread, but since this position is on the table now:

I have no qualms helping to provide for people who need providing. So let's just suppose we do that with UBI. Now, UBI needs to be funded by someone. If you are funding UBI, what is the purpose of giving you back that money?

This is the left side argument against UBI—“remove the U” (not everyone needs it). The right side argument is with the “BI” (just get a job you fuckin slob).

This is why UBI efforts will ultimately fail—they both fundamentally oppose crucial aspects of the concept for completely different reasons.

but what happens when the ratio of “producers” vs “non-producers” reaches a point where producers can’t produce enough to meet everyone’s needs?

I am constantly coughing up several fluid ounces of clear phlegm daily. I have to clear my throat with disgusting noises for at least a couple hours per day, ideally for at least 5 minutes once per hour, just to feel like I'm not drowning. I could take a picture of the puddles of phlegm daily to prove it. I've already seen a few doctors and none of them can tell exactly what it is, nor have any suggested treatments helped. Personally, I have found that using a toothbrush to brush the back of my tongue to induce a gag reflex to induce a major, choking, heaving coughing fit where it feels like my lungs are turning inside out, reduces the sensation of drowning but does not slow down fluid production. Obviously, having do to this would be very awkward in an office environment, and overall it's just extremely depressing that I'm crippled like this when I'm otherwise a very healthy 30 year old. Been living with this for 2 years and keeping my job but I'm sure everyone talks about how annoying my constant coughing is, nevermind the unlucky people who hear me clearing my throat or catch me spitting up puddles in the office parking lot.

That sounds terrible. Have you considered cystic fibrosis medication? Or at least something like the Lung Flute?

https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-lung-flute-product-review...

That is interesting. I have used something somewhat similar, it's a device that looks similar to an inhaler but has an ~18mm ball bearing in it, which vibrates in a chamber at ~10hz when exhaled through, which feels close to the resonant frequency of the lungs. This did seem to help clear out some buildup, especially at the end of an exhale, straining to blow every last bit of air out of the lungs, probably a squished-sponge effect forcing it up into the airways where it can be expelled. It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down.

I will ask for tests for CF at the next appointment and ask if they are aware of the lung flute and would prescribe it, thanks for the suggestion. Searching amazon for "lung flute" turns up some types of devices I haven't seen before.

>It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down.

Seen an ENT about chronic tonsilitis yet?

Seeing one in March, I'll ask about that. Thank you so much

Everyone receives UBI. Those earning additional income beyond a threshold will pay taxes such that their "net UBI" for the tax year or other tax period will be 0 or less.

But the standard UBI payments come in no matter what.

Can you better phrase how you're looking at this like an experiment with control and test components?

That was just a poor sentence. By "claim it" I'm referring to opting not to work and citing long covid.

I'm asking if after having given everyone an escape hatch, what is going to fund UBI?

Progressive property tax. The more property you own, the higher percentage of its value you pay every year as a tax.

So you want to give a large property owner UBI, but then you want to tax him more than the UBI?

Yup. I'm gonna give him UBI because figuring out why he shouldn't get any would cost too much.

And I'm gonna take the property tax to finance UBI but also to incentivise him to maybe sell some of his property to lower his property tax percentage. To reduce his ability to suck out UBI of his tenants from them.

(Well, HN has put the brakes on a totally civil engagement, so I need to reply here instead of where it belongs.)

OK, I see where you're going with that. The part I object to is really just an implementation detail. It's not cheaper to give him money and pay him back because 1) that's work that someone has to do, and more importantly 2) the reason you need to know if he should not be getting it is because you need to know how much to tax him in the first place, and it's the same job.

That said, I don't like the implication for the aged who no longer work. I'd prefer to keep people in their homes than to tax them out of them.

It's completely separate jobs.

To give UBI you just need to know if the guy has pulse and what is his chosen bank account. You can delegate both of those tasks to banks. Heck, you can delegate paying the guy to banks as well. They can just credit his account out of a thin air, the way they currently do when they give loans. You can destroy equivalent amount of money that you gathered from tax to keep things in balance.

The tax on the other hand is completely different job. Because you need to find out what properties this guy has (directly and through subsidiaries) and how much are they worth on the market and set up account for him to pay and inform him about how much he needs to pay and confiscate his assetes if he doesn't pay. That's much more work but it can bring vast amounts of money and improve our insane system of real estate where hoarding is not only cheap but even profitable.

Regarding old folks. Tax on a single or even two or three properties should be zero. You might even get a tax credit if you own just single property that would help you with your mortgage. However for more properties it should raise significantly. Maybe if you have 1000 properties tax should cost you at least few of them each year.

Technical note about replying to a post. I think reply link is not visible for a while after creating a post. Last time I had ttouble with this I just waited a bit and it showed up.

> I think reply link is not visible for a while after creating a post

It's the depth/flamewar metric.

> you need to find out what properties this guy has...and inform him about how much he needs to pay

Right. You need to do this. So, at this point, you know whether or not he needs the original benefit.

Yeah, but you'd have to treat him differently and that unnecessary work. In software it's good to keep separate the things that don't need to be combined. UBI is universal so even the richest guy in a country should get it. Reducing one (some?) of his taxes and remebering to not pay him UBI is more work than just keeping those things separate.

Everybody wants a government handout. Nobody wants to pay the taxes to fund it.

That's a fairly North American Continent point of view I think.

Not everyone classifies government spending as a handout. Many countries have some sort of "Labour party" that tends to want to have high taxes, and over time such parties get plenty of votes.

Is it? Or is is mainly US? My impression is that Canada is a much more like Europe in this respect, and Mexico doesn't seem aligned with this either?

Canada is pretty much in the middle of Europe and the US in terms of overall tax burden, but still taxes less than pretty much any developed European country besides Switzerland (and Ireland, but Irish GDP is a warped figure).

Mexico taxes significantly less than the US does, the US is closer to other Anglosphere countries than it is to Mexico.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ta...

Licence to create money needed for loans that government awards banks is the ultimate handout.

Our Covid response really hurt the case for UBI. It turns out, when people are paid to stay at home and not work, even for a short period of time, we get high inflation and product shortages.

Which is frustrating.

Being paid to not work is just as conditional as being paid to work.

People are incentivized to meet the condition. Paying them to not work means they are incentivized to not work!

Very little of the product shortages (and subsequent inflation) came from people staying home. The vast majority came from global supply chain disruptions.

(Which I guess is still technically people staying home, but its a bit different if you're being forcibly locked in your apartment in China vs what the "lockdown" was in the US)

We had supply shortages because all the slack has been taken out of systems to "improve efficiency", which was an entirely predictable, but accepted trade-off of those decisions.

High inflation isn't the fault of people barely scraping by, its a reaction to supply disruptions worldwide.

I expect 10% inflation for the next decade, because of demographic shifts and deglobalization, in the US. The rest of the world will be worse as capital flees to the US.

Inflation is already falling well below that 10% threshold, even in nations with higher inflation than the US (e.g. the UK and Europe).

That said, a decade of 10% inflation would be an awfully cruel joke for millennials, who experienced the worst recession since the Depression around the time they graduated university, a decade of stagnant wages, another recession and global pandemic, and then, even if they managed to find themselves financially stable (e.g., tech employees), still hard-pressed to save for retirement under the weight of inflation.

>That said, a decade of 10% inflation would be an awfully cruel joke for millennials

Yes, it will be bad for all of us. I've lost the ability to earn an income due to long covid, yet my income is likely to be constrained to the meager cost of living adjustments that are wrangled out of a reluctant Congress in the remaining years of my life... should I make it to age 62 in 3 years to finally get "early" social security.

There will be wage growth roughly in line with inflation, so those who can participate in the labor force won't have it as bad as I will.

I wish you all luck.

Just so I understand...two stimmy checks are to blame for inflation and product shortages? I know this is a popular talking point, but there needs to be some facts to back this up. Supply chains were wrecked by shipping container shortages due to bottlenecking at ports as well as factory shutdowns. There are proven instances where businesses increased prices just because they could.

About two years ago the requirement of fractional reserve was removed completely. This allowed banks to create as much money as there was appetite for credit. Completely insane amount of money was created through this mechanism in last two years.

Another thing I don’t understand is why the 10T we printed isn’t included in the discussion.

At the start of the pandemic, between March 29 and July 25 2020, everyone claiming unemployment benefits got an extra $600/week on top of their normal payment. Later between December 27 2020, and September 4 2021, everyone was paid an extra $300/week for 9 months. For reference, the maximum unemployment benefit previously was $450/week.

This is all on top of the checks, of which there were 3.

Assuming you claimed unemployment the entire time, you would've gotten paid ~$24k + normal UI.

FYI unemployment is set at the state level. Some states pay far in excess of $450 per week (MA pays nearly $850). Your main point is still applicable and I agree with it.

I never got unemployment compensation even though I was unemployed, I fell through the cracks, and couldn't focus on it (because of long COVID) enough to get it done.

So... We had record low interest rates for years, the PPP, rolling shutdowns in China...

And people are blaming the stimulus checks? Shows you the power of business interests in the media.

It just tought us that introducing UBI needs to go hand in hand with measures to prevent capturing of this money by landlords.

Personally I'd like to see progressive real estate tax introduced. The more property you own, the higher percentage of its value you need to pay each year as a tax.

This would be disastrous. We already have a housing shortage, leading to high prices. The answer isn't to make it more expensive than it already is.

Pretty sure op means to gradually increase taxes the more properties someone owns, to the point it's hardly profitable to have 100 rental properties, when you make the same with 70, because of taxes, so you can sell these and the rise in supply will lower costs to purchase a home, etc.

Though, personally I'm more in favor of a land value tax, I think op is on the right path. Having the tax pegged to factors like average wage / rent of an area would help landlords keep it in check, though.

Yeah, that's what I had in mind. Gradual smooth raise. It could also be gradually introduced with rates and increase starting from low levels but increasing each year while keeping close eye on the effect it has on the markets with special focus on the poorest members of society.

This tax could also be starting not from 0% but from negative value owners of a single small property might get tax credit that could help them with their mortgage in the environment of dropping property prices. For larger families with larger single properties UBI could help.

As for land value I'd like to treat the land as just another property and include its value into the total value that the tax rate is based on. I wouldn't pay attention too much about local wages. I think that information influences property values that the tax rate should be based on.

We have affordable housing shortage. This would make a lot of housing quickly affordable.

There might be secondary effects as well. Like dropping prices of properties might make land for new developments cheaper.

Money generates money exponentially. Taxes that do not also rise in step, are taxes that enable a widening gulf between the have and have-nots.

A UBI doesn't pay people to stay home. If anything it gives the many extra reasons to go out and work because they won't lose benefits.

This is a weak, boring, and non-genuine take. UBI is nothing like the stimulus checks. The amount given (to people at least, not the PPP loans) was miniscule and the inflation/shortages are not from the payments

When people can't work you get product shortages, and then inflation, but UBI isn't about paying people not to work, it's about people electing to work for more money beyond the "basic".

The product shortages are due to piss poor profit centric “just in time” inventory schemes. Corporations failing are always corporations fault.

This marketing that redirects blame onto “inflation”(a gov failure) or “people being at home” or “shortages” only serves to distract while corporations post profits, layoff while kicking back to shareholders, and continue to pay as little as possible for the labor.

I'm pretty open to UBI but dont really see how that would be the case here.

Let's say someone (who also has an illness like diabetes) has two children and isnt able to work for five years because of long covid. Will the UBI payments be high enough to support them and their children? Or would higher payments be needed to support for them? Would they get a different UBI as a single dude in his 40s?

If so that's fine - but then it just seems like its welfare not UBI.

UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way.

"Welfare" beyond that can and should be discussed and considered - I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally.

Everyone receives it, everyone pays taxes accordingly, those with enough tax liability end up netting $0 or less in UBI for the period.

> UBI plus Medicare for All (not just Medicare for elders) is the way.

Note that, given the actual structure of Medicare (partially publicly subsized private insurance with a public default and minimum-benefit option which still has premiums, part of which is waived for Social Security and Railroad Retirement beneficiaries), the ACA is almost Medicare for all, and with a default public option (even with premiums for most people) the “almost” would go away.

(“Medicare for all” is sometimes used as a code for universal, premium-free, public-only insurance, but that’s not at all similar to Medicare.)

Thank you for clarifying, I support a universal, premium free, public insurance plan.

  > I'm not advocating for taking away any of the welfare state as a trade for implementing UBI, personally.

Interesting, since that is always it's main selling point. It's supposed to simplify the benefits programs since everyone just gets a check. Obviously that's naive, but it's the common refrain when discussing cost.

If children also get UBI then most likely yes. Same UBI for everyone to keep things cheap and simple.

Need more cash, have more babies!

What could go wrong?

Human fertility might go back closer to replacement levels in rich countries?

Their societies might get younger instead of trending towards inverted population pyramid?

Oh, the horror.

We have Social Security disability payments available to those who are legitimately unable to work (I do recognize that it can be difficult for some people to navigate the application process). But I am absolutely unwilling to pay higher taxes into a UBI scheme to support people who are capable of working but choose not to.

Higher taxes would be imposed progressively. Currently the most wealthy / highest income people on average pay the least as a % of their income. Furthermore: how about a wealth tax (maybe call it a "hoarding tax" to describe the behavior better).

There are testable markers. Drastically low serum cortisol is one of them.

Related: "Long Covid: major findings, mechanisms and recommendations" (207 comments, 12 days ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34375735

Awesome. We know a lot more about Long Covid than many people seem to think. This is a good summary of where we are.

Personal anecdote: I'm going through some mental issues as a result of my divorce and I have trouble staying motivated at work. It's incredibly tempting to claim that I'm suffering from long COVID as an excuse instead of a mental health issue.

I wonder how many people are just using it as a convenient excuse?

I thought the same thing after reading the article. I wonder if long term disability would pay out? [I have no intention of finding out]

Thank you for sharing, I hope you feel better soon.

The data here is worker's comp claims, so there's a financial incentive at stake.

>convenient excuse

I think it’s not so overt or intentional. It’s more of a confabulation effect.

Right, like another commenter suggests, perhaps I do have long covid and I just don't know it. I'm sure there's a confabulation.

I'd never claim mental health issues at work, personally.

Sorry to hear about your divorce! Stay strong

Thank you, I'm getting help, it just takes time to heal.

Given the push for mental health & disability visibility as part of DE&I initiatives, is there a reason that you think long covid would garner you more sympathy than saying you're suffering depression as the result of a traumatic experience?

I think that push has helped but it's not universal and there's a lot of stigma around mental health issues.

Are you sure you are not suffering from long covid? Neurological damage can drastically lower mental resilience. Get checked.

I've recently realized that I've been unusually tired, daily, and lack the usually high ambition and drive I had prior to January 2020, which is when I caught COVID.

I never got the vaccine and I'm curious if my symptoms are related to COVID, or related to being a few years older, or changes to exercise schedules, or a general change in life outlook after the past few years, or even mild depression or something. It may even be completely psychosomatic.

I'm considering getting the vaccine just to see if it makes a difference. I'm curious if anyone else is/was in a similar situation.

It's unlikely vaccine will help you at this point, although there've been some anecdotal reports of vaccination reducing symptoms of long covid.

The problem is what even is "long covid"? I've had a doctor tell me it doesn't actually exist, and other people tell me it's to blame for basically everything.

Has the definition been consolidated now that covid is (seemingly) a little less political?

There are quite a lot of studies that conclude long covid is definitely a thing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8875269/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5...

You'd probably be better off talking to your doctor and having some bloodwork done. It could be as simple as some kind of deficiency. Throwing a random vaccine at it for something that vaccines aren't meant to do is probably ill advised.

I've done this, labs seems normal, though I don't think we tested for vitamin deficiencies.

Being deficient in vitamin d is especially common in winter months and can cause symptoms like yours. There are probably others worth checking as well. Good luck.

Vitamin D and the omega-3 fatty acids control serotonin synthesis and action, part 2: relevance for ADHD, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and impulsive behavior

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25713056/

You should get the vaccine regardless to enhance your immunity in case of a potential re-infection. If it helps you feel better that's just a bonus.

Completely feel the same way, except I attribute it to losing my job offer due to lockdowns (pulling the financial rug out from under me for months), being isolated from friends and family members for years, losing all access to outlets other than TV and video games or whatever else I could do inside, and the constant stream of news about how the world was on fire and we're all hopeless to stop it.

It doesn't take a novel virus to see how many people would feel pretty aimless and disillusioned after that.

I had had immune system issues since January 2020, where it take forever to feel better. So before the vaccines, which I did get. I am suffering now, as I write this. It comes and goes. I will go months when I am fine but then get sick and take weeks to get better. No mental issues. Not obese, run everyday, etc. If I overdo it with a long run then sometimes it will trigger it. Once its triggered, it takes a week or two feel normal. I can work and get through the day, but not much energy for much else. Feel sick in the morning. Extremely frustrating.

To be clear, are you saying this is something you think was caused by the vaccine, or something you had before the vaccines? If the latter, what are you suggesting occurred in Jan 2020?

I wanted to rule out the vaccine as the cause, since it started before vaccines were available. And wanted to offer a similarity to the OP. A virus or some illness I got back in January 2020 caused a deregulation in my immune system that I still suffer from today in 2023.

I've been experiencing that, too, but mine started early in 2019 when I got burned out at work. I've been coasting ever since. Some weeks I get zero work done, and I struggle to do the minimum of get out of bed, exercise, and shower some days.

I don't think it's covid, except inasmuch as the isolation of work-from-home has made every day identically boring and unstimulating. The sense of looming doom -- new covid variants, long covid, and the beginning stages of world war 4 -- make it hard to care about doing anything for the long term.

I wish I had a solution. I'm considering taking a long sabbatical. My fear is that won't help, and I'll deplete my savings before the world can get any better, which I think is what I really need to overcome it.

Covid is a problem for working-age people when there is a comorbidity - usually obesity. It'd be interesting to see additional data about these worker comp claims about other health issues as we've known that America has an obesity problem for some time.

My understanding is that while the risk of serious illness and death are strongly correlated with age and comorbidities that we're starting to see a meaningful number of cases of long covid in the working age population and it's not clear to me that it is limited to those who are obese.

Apparently Long Flu also happens to a certain number of people. I wonder if these people with long covid would have been just as susceptible to getting these symptoms with the flu or other diseases? Maybe there are relevant biomarkers for both?

I often point out that what people think of as polio is more accurately Long Polio. The acute phase of polio infection wasn't fun, but the paralysis etc. came much later after apparent recovery. This kind of short and long term duality with viral diseases (see also: shingles) has been known for a long time.

A lot of the symptoms of “Long COVID” are exactly the same as depression and anxiety symptoms. Brain fog, fatigue, muscle weakness: anyone who has ever had depression knows what this is like. Of course there are a small number of people who had severe illness from COVID and had to be hospitalized, and the road to recovery for them is quite long, but most people claiming that they suffer from Long COVID are not the ones who were hospitalized.

The fact that there is no diagnostic test that tells you whether you have Long COVID or not leads me to believe that this is yet another hidden manifestation of mental illness. I feel sympathy for people going through this, but it’s wrong to expect the medical industry to come up with any solutions.

Long Covid has a collection of effects on the body which can be observed using commonly-ordered tests. A dramatically reduced serum cortisol is one.

Hyperactivity of the amygdala, commonly associated with depression, also causes changes in cortisol levels. [1]

[1] https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.neuropsy...

Not a lot of people know this, but depression also has a collection of effects on the body.

https://lorienpsych.com/2021/06/05/depression/

Depression and anxiety can have very significant effects too, way beyond what people would assume. I spent years thinking I had a serious health disorder, but in the end? Just anxiety causing all the symptoms.

That's not all. We also have "T cell alterations, including exhausted T cells, reduced CD4+ and CD8+ effector memory cell numbers and elevated PD1 expression on central memory cells" which might help narrow it down for the non-believers. I didn't want to post a laundry list, but can post more if necessary.

Brain fog, fatigue, muscle weakness: anyone who has ever had depression knows what this is like.

I've had depression and I've had depressed friends. None of us ever had those symptoms.

Were you clinically diagnosed? It is quite common for people suffering from depression to not even be able to get out of bed in the morning.

I too have had depression and I have also had depressed friends. All of us have had those symptoms.

Including actual weakness of muscles?

Yes.

How do you reliably measure actual weakness of muscles? There is a huge neurological and psychological component to strength. My level of motivation and willingness to suffer has a huge impact on the amount of force that I can exert in a strength test. If I think I'm sick then that reduces my confidence and my ability to perform to my maximum potential even if there's nothing physically wrong.

That said, I do think there is probably some mitochondrial dysfunction going on in a subset of Long Covid patients that reduces muscle strength. But we don't have a good way to measure it and don't even know what to look for.

Absolutely.

I'm not sure how that's unreasonable. Depressed people tend to lounge or lay around in bed all day, tired, sad, feeling helpless. I can days or weeks causing muscle atrophy (maybe not a ton) but enough that when actually move you feel sore. Perhaps they've stopped going to the gym. Some people tend to under eat while depressed which can lead to no energy and your muscles not getting adequate nutrients which could cause cramps and pain.

So it's seems absolutely possible to experience "actual weakness of muscles"

What you describe sounds like: depressed --> move less --> weaker muscles. It also sounds gradual.

Long Covid is different. covid --> weak muscles. Also, it is more acute.

That's why depression is classified as a disorder and not a disease. We really don't know the full range of causes and it seems likely there's several different ones.

I have had depression for years. And some of the people I know who also have depression have these symptoms. Turns out not everybody reacts the same way to everything!

I swear there's a dismissive comment like this on every single long covid article on HN

Calling it 'exactly the same' is doing a lot of heavy lifting. I've struggled on and off with depression and the symptoms people report for long covid are not at all like those I or others with depression I've talked to. General fatigue/exhaustion for example doesn't mean I quickly run out of breath when doing normal activities or struggle to do tasks I normally took for granted.

Perhaps you and I have had different experiences with depression. For me, basic physical activity is completely exhausting when I am going through a depressive episode.

Then your statement is incorrect. You said 'anyone who has ever had depression knows what this is like'. I am anyone and I disagree.

There are likely multiple completely different underlying root causes which are being conflated together. Some cases may be psychosomatic. But post-viral syndrome has been recognized since at least 1987. It appears that many different viral infections can cause persistent damage to cellular metabolism in a subset of patients, and SARS-CoV-2 is nothing special in that regard. We need more basic research to understand what's really going on.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/

I don't see how anyone can deny the risks inherent to getting a shot. However insignificantly low you can demonstrate the possibility of side-effects from the vaccine are, the risks associated with actually getting covid were just as low.

Given the vaccine isn't even preventing covid now, you're only compounding your risk by getting it. This is undeniable no matter what you think about vaccines, mandates, etc.

Can't believe we're still having this debate. There are indeed risks to the vaccine. There are also risks to covid (both immediate and longer term). My understanding based on the research is that for the vast majority of the population the sum of the risks of vaccine plus (usually) a milder case of covid are materially lower than the risks of getting covid if you're unvaccinated.

A vaccine doesn't have to stop you getting something to reduce your risk of serious illness, death and possibly long covid.

I think the risks of lying in a hospital, strapped to a ventilator were a lot higher with Covid than with getting the shot. To be honest I would recommend the shot even if just to prevent potential month-long loss of smell, as I experienced it (I think that symptom is less prevalent with recent variants though, but I could be mistaken)

> I think the risks of lying in a hospital, strapped to a ventilator

Being managed by medical professionals with no experience or training on said ventilator or enough personnel to accurate monitor the ventilators or even put the right people who actually need a ventilator and not just everyone that walked in the door.

Yes, hospitals were woefully unprepared in many cases, and there certainly were errors in proper care. That doesn't mean though that all or even most uses of ventilators were wrong.

Even with the shots I had 2 weeks where I could not smell.

Definitely one of the strangest things I've had happen to me.

To be honest I'm actually not sure what the numbers are when it comes to preventing that particular symptom. It was just the most annoying one to me personally. In case the vaccines don't prevent it in any meaningful way after all I simply recommend them to prevent, unlikely but possible, severe cases and death.

I think the use of ventillators was deemed overzealous and reactionary before we even had a vaccine rollout.

Covid gave me a fever for two days. The vaccine gave me a fever for two days. I don't see how either was better/worse than the other in my case.

The people who couldn't breathe certainly appreciated the ventilators. Possible that some were hooked to them unnecessarily, but certainly not all of them.

Do you think that your personal experience of covid automatically means that everyone else's was, is, and will be, exactly the same? Or can you accept that there is a bell curve distribution of possible physiological responses to a covid infection?

Perhaps society should consider homelessness a solved problem because you personally have a home?

"Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection."

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-ter...

I generally think that mental illness is on par with physical illness, to the degree that you can differentiate them. If it’s worth our time to worry about one, it’s worth our time to worry about the other.

We need to correctly diagnose the issue to "worry" constructively about it. Many in the Long COVID community start from the assumption that their symptoms are caused by a totally novel post-viral syndrome, and are very against exploring the idea that this could be a mental health issue.

I can't tell if you're claiming that people claim that 1.) post-viral covid is totally novel, of if 2.) Post-viral syndrome is totally novel.

However, it reads to me like you're saying that there is no way post-viral syndrome could be a real cause. If they see a competent doctor, I'm pretty dure that they'll investigate depression as a cause, and make an attempt to verify or rule it out.

Post-viral syndrome has been recognized since at least the mid-80's, roughly [1]. As far as it goes, if someone gets covid and has horrible symptoms of depression afterwards, then it's certainly plausible that it's caused by post-viral syndrome.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1710789/

That, or, it gives credence to theories that depression can have a physiological component or origin in at least some cases.

It also blurs the line between physical and mental illness. Where do neurological disorders end and mental illnesses begin?

It seems highly unlikely that millions of people get a depression right after an infection with covid.

It seems more likely that the significant lockdowns and deep isolation that came with it had these same effects. When you can't see friends for months, can't do anything but stay home and watch tv/play video games, and are constantly exposed to news of a depressing, ill world - what else do you feel?

You don't need covid to feel "Long Covid" after the life we've lived in the last 2 years.

That's testable. It should be possible to compare the rate of "long covid" issues between people who tested positive for covid at some point, and people who didn't. Break it down by area so you're comparing populations with the same isolation rules.

This would be an especially good comparison since it's unlikely that people who caught covid were more isolated on average.

A lot of people were severely negatively affected by the world's reaction to the pandemic. Businesses closed, jobs lost, financial insecurity, etc. Surely this could have an impact on the collective mental health.

The problem is that it also seems highly unlikely that a respiratory disease that primarily attacks lungs, results in long-term depression.

Whataever physiological connection exists there, is far from obvious. And I haven’t found concrete studies to explain it.

Covid is not just a respiratory disease. It can affect "the heart, kidneys, skin and brain. Inflammation and problems with the immune system can also happen," according to Mayo Clinic: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...

They're mainly talking about severe cases, but it doesn't seem that unlikely that it could also have more mild effects to those organs.

This article is about Long Covid, so in a sense this is circular evidence.

Nonetheless, the two qualifiers in the statement "People who had severe illness with COVID-19 might experience organ damage affecting the heart, kidneys, skin and brain" weakens the argument. If the long-covid issue was just that people who were in ICU then had long-term symptoms, that's an easy premise to understand. But IMHO, for mild symptoms, there's a non-obvious leap to say that long-term brain damage somehow occurred.

"A large study comparing brain scans from the same individuals before and after SARS-CoV-2 infection suggests that brain changes could be a lingering outcome of even mild COVID-19."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2790595

Very early on, I came to the conclusion that COVID is a blood disease, and subsequent findings (especially about effects on the epithelium) have generally backed that up. That means it's capable of affecting practically any organ, including the brain and various hormone-producing glands, so the myriad symptoms associated with Long COVID aren't that surprising.

More recently, I've seen some scientific back-and-forth about whether Long COVID is novel or just a form of already-known post-viral syndrome. I sort of feel like it doesn't matter. Even if it is "just" post-viral syndrome, it seems to be particularly severe and widespread. Whichever theory turns out to be correct (including the "just depression" theory), the empirical fact of Long COVID's existence has more to do with my continued caution than any fear of acute COVID. Getting older has been and will continue to be "fun" enough without that.

It doesn't primarily attack lungs. It's novel, so it hasn't evolved a particular favourite target. It attacks everything. If you really want to hang a sign on it, a large number of symptoms are repercussions of vascular damage (in the lungs, brain, kidneys, etc). Many are arguing that Covid is far more a vascular problem than a lung ailment.

And even if they did, that doesn't mean covid didn't physically cause it. HIV for example can cause depression by physically damaging the brain.

https://www.health.com/condition/depression/conditions-linke...

I guess if I had to watch family members and friends die via a video chat, or not being able to visit or hold their handle in their last moments? Or you know attend a funeral.

Nope can't see that leading to depression. Everything is fine.

This is just so, so wrong in many ways. Read about post-viral diseases such as Me/CFS that closely mirrors what Long Covid sufferers are going through. Watch "Unrest" on Netflix. Stop telling people who have serious physical symptoms that it's all mental. Just stop.

Are there any physiological or biological signatures for Long Covid? Is there any objective way to diagnose?

The symptoms of Long Covid are so vague and our recent work so wacky, you could use the same criteria used to diagnose Long Covid to diagnose "Long Lockdowns Syndrome" with all the same vague symptoms.

There is lots and lots of research into the similarities of Long Covid and other post-viral illnesses despite the fact that people only recently started reporting these symptoms:

"This study supports prior findings that ME/CFS occurs with high prevalence among those who have persistent COVID-19 symptoms." - https://www.mdpi.com/2035-8377/15/1/1

Long Covid symptoms are not vague. If you argue this, you have not done enough research into what people are battling. A majority of Long Covid haulers suffer from PEM (Post Exertional Malaise) which is a primary symptom of ME/CFS, and even thought research on this subject has been performed for decades, We currently don't understand what causes it. There are many theories for ME/CFS which could fit well with Long Covid, including an activation of the Epstein-Barr virus which causes neuroinflammation, and if this neuroinflammation primarily centers on the brain, it explains all the symptoms that people are reporting.

There are: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2

Fibromyalgia is a similar issue and I'm sure there are hundreds of others, our understanding of the human body still has a long way to go.

> The symptoms of Long Covid are so vague

They’re often worse than that. A lady was interviewed on Radio 1 a few days ago and she had recorded over 100 (!) symptoms in herself that she attributed to long COVID.

The fun part of the story was she was never diagnosed with COVID at any point since 2020. She assumed when she got sick in March of 2020 it was COVID and that’s when her problems began.

Everything about her story pointed strongly to serious mental health issues, but she completely rejected even the idea that was possible.

I'm willing to be proven wrong. Up until now, there hasn't been a lot of scientific evidence pointing to a specific physiological cause.

I bet cases of fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome are down while long covid is up.

"Stop telling people who have serious physical symptoms that it's all mental"

As someone who has serious physical symptoms stemming from mental disorder, I think you're being a dick. The experience is the same even if the root cause is mental. And your attitude belittles it.

Nowhere did I say mental disorders are better or less harmful than physical disorders, and nowhere did I say that the experience is not the same from a patient's point of view. However, there's a great difference in how the medical profession treats people with physical and mental disorders, and these patients are being told repeatedly by the entire world that they are feeling what they are feeling because of anxiety, depression, etc, which is flat out wrong. As a person who has also battled with mental problems, I'll be the first to point out that that's a big, big problem.

Ok I misinterpreted you then. It ticked me off when you seemed ask people to not mistake "real" physical stuff from mere mental stuff. Sorry.

No worries, I get it. That's another big problem!

I think that's a very wrong way of thinking about it. Mental illness is illness and ultimately will always have a physical cause. My more optimistic take is that this will lead to us better understanding how things like pathogens and environmental factors can cause syndromes that manifest as mental illness. Which is to say this could be both depression and long covid and the two could be intertwined. And it may lead us to looking at how influenza or air pollution or cell phone radiation or whatever else is causing depression symptoms.

I say this as someone who was in the same boat for a while. I was suffering persistent fatigue, malaise, anxiety, sleep disruptions. The kind of thing frequently diagnosed as depression. Only I eventually graduated to a specific enough symptom to get a diagnosis of specific physiological cause. A disease that was only positively attributed to specific neurological malfunction 20 years ago and one that is very difficult to test for directly. In reality, I _was_ depressed by the "quacks like a duck" theory of disease. That doesn't mean I didn't have a treatable illness no different than heartburn or cancer. It's only a matter of time (maybe a lot of time) before we really can "cure" most forms of depression.

"BREAKING NEWS: Being locked down for almost 2 years with limited travel and physical interaction causes depression find out about Pfizer's new cure at 11"

> The fact that there is no diagnostic test that tells you whether you have Long COVID or not leads me to believe that...

...we don't know everything about the human body and immune system and medicine and still have a lot to learn.

https://archive.is/IBzbF

While Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve wonders where the 3.5 million "missing workers" are in the workforce...

(See also the decline in immigration due to Trump's policies, which Biden has never actually reversed)

No no it’s called “quiet quitting”

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