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Comment by int_19h | Hacker News Reader

The point is that the ISA is assuming that BL and RET opcodes come in pairs - which is an assumption that does reflect what structured code is typically compiled down to. Going by the semantics of the opcodes themselves, there's no reason why RET should be treated differently from a simple indirect jump here.

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> there's no reason why RET should be treated differently from a simple indirect jump here.

There’s its very existence. If you’re looking for a general purpose indirect jump, use that.

As far as I understand, the ISA explicitly intends for BL and RET to come in pairs. The only point of RET is to jump to the address last stored by BL. If you don't need this behavior, there's no reason to use RET - as the article itself shows, B x30 does the exact same job, and doesn't come with the extra assumptions.

That's my point - the ISA is designed around the notion that function calls (a structured programming concept!) are a thing that BL will be used for, and not arbitrary jumps where you happen to have some clever use of the link address.

And while it's not something that the example code in the article demonstrates, but based on the description of how it confuses the branch detector, it sounds like having multiple BLs without a matching RET for each would also be a problem.

Subroutines predate structured programming.

I was using the terminology as OP did, and yes, it is not quite right. But the point as I understood it was that branch predictors optimize around specific "structured" usage patterns of opcodes - in this case, the particular way to use BL/RET to implement function calls typical of C - to the point where any other use is too slow to be practical for anything.

what's the difference between a subroutine an a proper C function??

theyr'e so close to what they're in principle.

IMO, C functions are the answer to the problem exposed in the famous quote "goto considered harmful".

assembly is all about GOTOs.. C provides a *structure* way to deal with them without getting bored to day (it all becomes way to much to soon)

but I think (for reasons that I wish I could get into) that in the end, the goto-based assembly code can go up to multiplication, but then with C and their computer-functions one can go beyond exponentiation.

What is there beyond, I can only name by reference but wouldn't say I undesrtand it... which tetration.

so riddle me this: why is 2[op]2=4 for all these operations: addition, multiplication, exponentiation, tetration, pentation!?

imma go keep being insane. thxbai

Early subroutines were really just a branch/return - no stack frames and thus no proper argument passing or recursion or locals. If you've seen a BASIC dialect with GOSUB in it, that's pretty much it. It's a bit more structured than simple jumps, but still much lower level than C functions.

Structural programming is traditionally considered subroutines + conditionals + loops. In its purest form, it also means no branches other than the ones implicit in this list (i.e. not only no goto, but also no return, no break/continue etc).

No, the ISA overall is not designed around that notion. The designers merely recognized that this is a common pattern, and added 1 or 2 instructions specifically for it (it's not clear to me whether using BL for other purposes would have the same detrimental effects that using RET as in the article). This would likely be a very good addition even in a purely hypothetical world where it wasn't a common pattern in 99.9% of languages.

Also, I'm not sure why you believe that there is any kind of language where this pattern isn't common. Even something like Forth relies heavily on jumping into subroutines and back.

> Going by the semantics of the opcodes themselves, there's no reason why RET should be treated differently from a simple indirect jump here.

RET is documented as a subroutine return hint in the official ARM architecture reference manual. That's the only reason it has a distinct opcode from BR.

BL is also documented as a subroutine call hint.

> Going by the semantics of the opcodes themselves,

This is RISC wishful thinking that makes it sound like BL is not CALL. Maybe in ARM 1 it wasn't, it is now.

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