We keep grinding, hoping we'll achieve X and then we'll be content forever, only to find merely emptiness on the other side.
The new shiny badge of honor barely takes days to get normalized and the void kicks in again.
What exactly are we going after? Is there even an end to this?
Why am I working? Before kids I foolishly thought it had something to do with being part of a team that is going to really change the world somehow. Now I do it to make money. And by not fooling myself about the "change the world" nonsense, it's now very easy to not work past 5pm, not have Slack on my phone, and be wholly present with my family most of my week. It helps me pick working less over getting raises or being promoted to a position that will demand I'm always reachable. It helps me decide, "do I want to be doing this hobby, or do I want to play with my kids?" It helps me make hobbies more interesting by involving my kids. It helps me never feel like I'm wasting my time here. If I go months without working on some project or developing some set of skills, no problem!
If you really go to the basics then ones life is about attracting the best other-side of the genes to replicate with (this is the part where you try to impress with brains/humor/sportscar that you have the best available genes) and make sure they survive + get a nice boost in their part of attracting best genes.
I'd say there is an extra dimension now to make sure the environment where generations down genes of yourself have a good chance of surviving, but this is not yet programmed into genes.
If I had been more idealistic in my young adult years, I would have most likely grinded hard at some “change the world” startup that fizzled out and now I’d be frantically scrambling to afford a house.
But I have 0 desire to start a family.
I just do what I like to do and have fun doing it and that all seems to work out pretty great for me.
Not all of us want to be good little replicators.
What happens once your children grow up and leave? You are back in the original situation, except worse - the relationship with your spouse has now likely deteriorated, and you have now likely neglected your hobbies and interests (and often even your health) to the point you don't even know how to live by yourself anymore. Most parents do not seem to deal with that well, trying to hold on, pushing for grandchildren etc.
It does not seem like a solution at all, just a more extreme version of 'we keep grinding, hoping we'll achieve X and then we'll be content forever, only to find merely emptiness on the other side' where you voluntarily choose to intensify your grind dramatically and leave yourself no alternatives.
In fact, just substituting 'by having kids' with another such activity that dramatically intensifies your grind and leaves you no alternatives seems to work just as well. "My answer was found by [going on a trek through the Sinai desert/giving everything to charity and going to live on a homestead away from civilization/circumnavigating the world on a small boat]. For me, one of the absolute best things about it was that it eliminated all doubt: I now had a 100% crystal clear main quest that trivially answers, 'what should I be doing right now?' if I'm ever not sure. Everything else in life is just a side quest"
The point is people need a purpose they can rally their life around. They need to feel needed by their society for fulfillment.
[1] See Sebastian Junger's book Tribe
In your example, if studying and acing your exam gives you more happiness in the long run (despite less happiness in the short term), it's worth it to suffer a bit now and study. If acing your exam doesn't give you more happiness in the long run, then compare it against the happiness you get if you don't ace it, and make a decision.
One day I will get my promotion, so I can make even bigger impact. But for the next 5 years I should focus on self-education. We have unlimited access to Udemy courses, and my manager says it's a good starting point.
These kids of questions and angsts are very normal and very old. Religion has been there to help with this for a very very long time. If not a daily/weekly practice, then the religious texts that you prefer may help.
For jews/christians, the Book of Job is a good starting place : https://www.bible.com/bible/1171/JOB.1.MEV (MEV lacks the ... poetry of NIV, of course, but is an easier starting place for laypeople, I think)
For hindus, the Bhagavad Gita is is another great starting place : https://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/gitasoci...
Other recommendations are welcome!
When does it end? It's always ending. And yet it is also always beginning anew each fortnight.
OP if you watch this, don’t take it too seriously (it is a joke, but with kernel of truth). But generally if you’re feeling that way it might be time to step back and focus on other parts of your life (family, friends, hobbies, mental and physical health, travel, etc).
I have zero answers for you. Personally, I learned to truly be ok with the answer "we don't know yet, but we're working toward it together". If you can somehow get to that point, you'll feel a little ease and maybe even a bit more connection with the rest of humanity.
I don't feel like most of humanity cares or even thinks about this in any regular interval, but I do. Might sound lame, but I feel like the right thing to do is contribute to meaningful work (space travel, medicine, sustainable energy, <noble cause X>) and focus on immediate problems in those areas.
People like you and I will never be around to see if humans collectively find good answers to these questions, but the same can be said about all the humans before us that got us to this point, and I'm truly thankful for what they built so far for us.
I've come to terms with the fact that there's no point of our existence other than being merely observers. I still get these waves of existential dread that I know will go away once I regain momentum.
Scientific advancement is one of the few things that gives me energy. In an ideal day, I would be spending most of my time reading textbooks, learning physics and math from ground up.
Also, don't create unnecessary problems for yourself - keep it simple. Don't have kids if you don't want to. Don't buy a car if you don't need it. Don't buy a huge house if all your need is 2 bedrooms. In other words, don't measure your success by external metrics.
I know that my end goal is so unrealistic, I am very unlikely reach it if I try to make it in one step. Instead I'm always looking for small steps I can take to just get a little bit closer. And with that mindset, I have made real progress.
So I did exactly that. I interviewed at places and when I reached the offer phase I asked for a lot. The first offer I got was not good enough, so I didn't accept it. The next one I was able to convince them to let me work four days. It was written in my offer letter and everything. I signed it, and have been working 32 hour weeks since July.
For me, the combination of COVID, a soul-sucking employer (though with a fantastic team I miss very much), and being unable to see my family on the other side of the planet for three years was too much. I'd have been fired were it not for the fantastic team. I had almost nowhere else to turn, so I finally took the (extensive) advice to see a therapist. Between therapy and psychiatry I found what was needed to get myself out of the awful job and into one I enjoy, and I can be productive again.
Once sustaining yourself is worked out and the pressure is off, you can work on the more holistic aspects.
Good luck mate! Happy to talk further in the comments if you'd like.
Context for those who haven't read OP's replies below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34520883
Sources of joy including learning, and service to others, especially family. In my church we have made promises to do this and it brings the most satisfaction in life, as far as I can see.
This also provides tools to handle the hard things in life (which can become growing experiences, to become our best, now and later on).
(thoughtful comments appreciated with any downvotes)
(ps: one way to serve others is by trying out https://justserve.org if it is available in your area -- a free site linking volunteers with community groups that can use volunteers.)
Who's "we" here? Are you saying "we're" the same, you and I? Are you using the royal "we"? Are you a group of people running this same account? But I suppose I do know the answer to that question, "we" is the group of people like you that is still fervently participating in the rat race.
Live as you can, live as you should. There's not much else I or anyone else can really say. If you have goals, try to achieve them. If you fail, get back up. If you succeed, keep on going. What are we going after? We're just living. Is there an end? Unfortunately, yes. But don't take it so seriously.
Read, meditate, go see a therapist, maybe take some drugs. You'll figure it out.
I eventually realized that I was miserable, and focusing on productivity just made me better at being miserable fast. Some people get joy out of optimizing their life - I don't.
I get joy out of working with people I respect towards a shared goal. As long as it's not actively harmful, I don't care what that goal is. I found a team that I liked which scratches that itch. I spend my free time with friends and family, reading, and doing other activities that are just existing. It works well for me
You're right. I left my job last year, after 1.5 years of experience out of burnout. I'm highly frugal but still running out of money, so gotta work again.
The problem is, I knew from the very beginning that I'm only doing software for the money. And now I have to do the same thing which I've always dreaded.
I hope I get some fulfilment working from office, socializing after three whole years.
I contributed ~50% of that to my parents' retirement home, leaving me with ~1.5y worth of expenses.
It's been 8-9 months since I left my job. So effectively I'm left with ~6mo.
I'm living with my parents. I can easily survive for another couple years, but I want to contribute to the family's expenses. Plus, home is too comfortable to get things done.
What worked for me was holding out until I found a team with people I connected with. And I know that will change as the company grows. I wanted people who were philosophically aligned about how to work and how work should relate to life.
Yes do, you just optimize for different things which you mentioned in the last paragraph. There is no escaping the need to optimize, so the chase is true for all of us even if the objectives differ.
Enlightened ascendant being here, I have some perspective for you …
In the beginning, there is the discovery of meanings, then the self while at the same time the self relationships with everyone and everything else …
And then, for those aspiring or just damn lucky, a glimmering ray of light penetrates the monotonous gloom.
A meaning beyond self worthy of devotion.
This may rise or fall, be ever lasting or a series of elevated epiphanies, However without question the ultimate fulfillment of existential being is …
TO GO BEYOND SELF
TO BE MORE THAN THE SELF
To make consequences of your life out to be more than the sum of consumptive waste keeping you alive.
This is the ultimate human endeavor.
Btw, your self excellence comes by decades of determination, not a few years here and there.
Now, just learn to tone your emotional response to these thoughts from 100% to like 20%. Remember that your desire to grind is rooted in positive values, but don't let them run amok and take over your life. Acknowledge them, but realize they are not the be-all end-all.
There's a simple algorithm, similar to the "Five Why's" technique[0] that uses a particular question[1] to elucidate the chain of intentions between a given behavior and it's deepest motivation.
Using this algorithm, it turns out that all behavior is directed toward achieving certain "core states". There are five of them and I forget exactly what they are, but um, Bliss, Oneness, Okayness, Being, and something else...
Anyway, as you might imagine, these "core states" are incredibly nice, and they are also not dependent on anything, so once you experience them through the process the original behavior is typically transformed in a deep and profound way.
So that's what we're chasing: these profound states of being.
The problem is that we are chasing them using very complicated and counter-productive and indirect methods. We are yak shaving.
Fortunately, these folks in Colorado came up with the aforementioned algorithm[2] and it's slowly spreading. I figure it's a pretty major advance in the history of psychology, eh? A short easy path to healing and happiness and growth...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys
[1] Not to be mysterious, it's "What do you want, through having that, that's even more important?" but there's more to the process than just that question, please don't experiment without learning the whole thing first, okay?
You seem ripe to read 4000 weeks, which central point is that the finitude of life is both the reason why you are always running after something in the future, and why you shouldn't.
Strongly recommend
There are some exceptions:
- Financial stability for my family.
- Some musical instruments/equipment have given me lots of long term enjoyment. But I also have some stuff I only used a couple times.
- Trips. I love remembering the places I've visited and who I was with.
- Books.
Short-term outcomes: satisfy biological and psychological needs now.
Long-term outcomes: satisfy biological and psychological needs later.
Biological needs are pretty obvious (e.g., food).
Psychological needs are less obvious (what makes you happy). These can range from mere entertainment all the way to being creative.
For me the real thing is creation. Being creative makes me happy. Being a good parent makes me happy because that means my children get to be happy, and having and raising children is -for many people- part of what it means to be creative.
> Is there even an end to this?
Yes, there is. Individuals die. Species become extinct. Enjoy the ride, and do good, while it lasts.
A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil"
6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
...
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.I imagine pro athletes might feel the same way. You have to enjoy playing the game for its own sake. The joy of a championship only lasts a few days.
Theologians have been discussing this forever. Why have consciousness and a will with this built in restlessness? What is this all for?
Why does there have to be an objective? Do the things you enjoy doing. Sometimes a bit of grind is enjoyable, sometimes it's necessary to afford to live.
I think of everything as things to pass the time until I die. If you spend a lot of time on things that you don't enjoy and they aren't a path to more enjoyable past times then reevaluate. Work less and hobby more and remember, the goal is not to end up with all the money, the goal is to maximize your time spent doing enjoyable activities.
Jokes aside, the rat race is a very American thing (maybe also a thing in other developing countries). To be very honest, most people wouldn't mind a layoff if it didn't destroy their ability to stay alive in this country.
There is a reason why more and more Americans want to emigrate to cheaper countries. They want to stay alive without being tied to an employer.
I know I'm pursuing the wrong thing. I know I need a system to get out of this cycle. Either that, or find something that's fulfilling and lucrative at the same time, which I've found to be rare.
Guess I'd achieve it some day. Maybe the freedom and satisfaction wouldn't be as long lasting as I'm telling myself to be.
If I were in the US and could make $500k for being a typical employee then I may have been more motivated. It's not that I don't have my own business plans, but I'm generally taking it easy outside of a corporate career.
“Dead yesterdays and unborn tomorrows, why fret about it, if today be sweet.” - Omar Khayyám
Disclaimer: life may now contain booze and floozies.
Is that the carrot from "carrot and stick?"
I'm pretty sure that ignoring the carrot means you get the stick instead.
Disclaimer: maybe some light spanking happens with booze and floozies.
Everyone enters the layercake at different layers depending on opportunity/privilege/luck/etc and the idea is to ascend the layers. Not everyone chooses to play, not everyone wants to play, but the opportunity to is get as far up to the top as you can.
The higher the layer you are on, the more you get to benefit from the foundation created by the layers below and benefit from the opportunity above you.
I'm quite convinced that the only solution is: to simply distract yourself from being aware of it. This can admittedly be hard at times, but it can also be quite easy at other times.
Use the time you have in a wise manner.
First stage: As Animals, we are chasing our impulses. It is just LIFE.
Second stage : As Rational Beings, we are chasing our "personal" desires/goals. Most people, most of the time, are content to feel the satisfaction and move on to the next one.
However, for some, sometimes, a voice emerges, a nagging voice. It says: "What are we even chasing?". The satisfaction is not there anymore. The wall crumbles, the void is overwhelming. Sometimes it is called depression.
Third Stage: This is what some would call “Spiritual”: as Spiritual beings, we are chasing...that void. Or more to the point, the void is chasing us (especially if we ignore it). Yes maybe it is not a "mere" (as you said) emptiness afterall. Maybe we should pay special attention to what this "emptiness" is telling us.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_need...
I don't write code only because I want to achieve some distant future goal. I write code because that's part of who I am in the moment. I enjoy typing, I enjoy problem-solving, I enjoy building things, etc. Like a spider weaving a web, it has become part of my nature.
The beauty of humans is that we are general purpose machines, which can do a wide variety of things, because of how our bodies are, especially our hands.
The future of course is also important. Greater financial independence, learning new skills, improving one's character, meeting interesting personalities. All these of course are things we can hope for and strive for, but should also try to have reasonable expectations about, and avoid excessive entitlement.
There are a lot of great answers in this thread, I particularly like inphovore and Waterluvian's, but yours might be different.
You need some minimal things to find happiness, enough food, shelter, and health. Sadly, in the US, we don't get those things, but there are places that can help you. You may need to move. You may need to live with family, friends, or strangers to get started on your journey. But, you must start your journey and only you can do it.
Read quotes from Mark Twain, The Obstacle is the Way, and The Conquest of Happiness.
Do something that brings you joy and embrace it -- this is particular hard for me. I'm still searching after 50 years.
Seize life! Eat bread with gusto,
Drink wine with a robust heart.
Oh yes—God takes pleasure in your pleasure!
Dress festively every morning.
Don’t skimp on colors and scarves.
Relish life with the spouse you love
Each and every day of your precarious life.
Each day is God’s gift. It’s all you get in exchange
For the hard work of staying alive.
Make the most of each one!
Whatever turns up, grab it and do it. And heartily!
This is your last and only chance at it,
For there’s neither work to do nor thoughts to think
In the company of the dead, where you’re most certainly headed.
The empty problem could mean you need a vacation or routine change.
I get this way in the winter too. Best of luck to everyone feeling this way right now. These feelings are mostly temporary. 3 weeks vacation to a new climate is nice. YMMV.
We're basically that with video games so it's more fun.
Also drugs, sex, rock'n'roll, burgers, Netflix, amazon prime, cola, holidays to sunny places, cheap fashion, plastic, pollution, war and death.
I would advise you go to your experience. Not thoughts and ideas. But directly to your experience and figure out what you want to.
To find happiness, first one must gain clarity about the one who is finding. If we can see that one we call "I" very clearly then the attainment of happiness is going to be easy.
If the question is unclear, the answer will be unclear or completely wrong.
Go to the experience of validating that answer. That is your anchor and starting point.
You know that to be 100 percent true.
Then separate what you are aware of from you (that which is aware).
Then investigate the nature of the attribute you know you have for certain. Is it limited in anyway? Is it personal? Does all experience depend on it or does it depend on some element of experience?
Clarify the understanding of your experience of yourself. And only then ask this question again.
I wouldn't really say I am specifically chasing anything.
If I had to pick something, then I guess I'd say I'm chasing what makes me overall the most happy.
Life's a piece of shit (Oooh)
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true (Oooh)
You'll see it's all a show (Oooh)
Keep 'em laughin' as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you (Oooh)
I don't enjoy living under constant threat to my life and imposed choice of either being recruited (war) or jailed, even regardless of poor health condition. I'd really love to change this and do what I love (like art and programming). But it's a bit laughable )
Suggest you try meditation. And maybe make some room for frivolous, creative activities, if you can.
I think I'd be more interested to hear _why_ people are chasing [insert thing-to-chase here].
In my personal life, I do the things I enjoy. Try not to suppress desires, instead be open to the world and let life happen.
Humor and being kind, become a Buddhist since it doesn't matter but that's important.
On the societal level, I think promoting human flourishing means first making sure everyone's basic needs are met (shelter, food, clothing, healthcare).
The next step for society to promote human flourishing is to give people more time away from work to pursue their own things, and to that end I'm a proponent of the 4 day (32 hour) work week replacing the standard 40 hour work week.
Another important step in promoting human flourishing is for towns to design physical spaces to encourage community and satisfying daily rhythms. There should be more places like libraries, local cafes, community centers, parks, etc where people can meet with other people. And there should be a concerted effort to reduce the need for cars. Places that are designed to encourage walking and biking are generally more pleasant than places that are designed around cars. There's less paved space for highways and parking lots, and more space for interesting places to visit along with more greenery. Not to mention the gentle exercise.
I think there's more our society can do to promote human flourishing, but those are big ones. The biggest point is that capitalist societies, especially the United States (the heart of capitalism), prioritize profit over human flourishing. Sprawling highways, homelessness, financially brutal healthcare, inadequate paternity leave, and bad work/life balances are all things that can be changed if we, as a society, want them to be changed. But to do that, we have to stop doing what capitalists want and instead build what we want.
>As long as you are governed by that desire you will never get what you want. You are trying to peel an onion: if you succeed there will be nothing left. Until you conquer the fear of being an outsider, an outsider you will remain.
>If all you want is to be in the know, your pleasure will be short lived. The circle cannot have from within the charm it had from outside. By the very act of admitting you it has lost its magic.
>You merely wanted to be “in.” And that is a pleasure that cannot last. As soon as your new associates have been staled to you by custom, you will be looking for another Ring. The rainbow’s end will still be ahead of you. The old ring will now be only the drab background for your endeavor to enter the new one.
We’re not doing this for some reward at the end. It’s only worth doing if it’s worth doing as you’re doing it.
this is perhaps evidence that you, the real you, the deep down you-you, is not of this world
Humanity has made all of our basic needs (shelter, food, water, land) inaccessible without lots of money. And, so we're forced into being slaves of govt and capitalism for most of our lives to earn a living. It's just something we have to accept. The material standard of living (as far shelter goes) has been dropping for the last 50 or even 200 years now, so people need to work harder and harder to reach basic needs.
There's no end to it until you've got more than enough investible assets to cover your future rent. and since there's no real such thing as land/house ownership, it makes that even harder.
It's not like we eat a really good meal and are never hungry again!
Abandoned places, I guess we know the score, on and on
Does anybody know what we are looking for?
Happen constant race, of good guys vs bad guys. And good guys should constantly be better to win.
Greetings from Ukraine!
Psychiatrists (and meds) have saved a lot of people’s lives, both figuratively and literally.
Not sure why you would even mention therapists. Having a trained third party listen and help you navigate things in your life has been a god send for many people I know, including myself.
Learn to have fun while looping?
A shiny new car? Not so much. As Dion said, "Cadillacs end up in the junkyard."
Money? As Tim O'Reilly said, "Money is like gasoline during a road trip. You don't want to run out of gas on your trip, but you're not doing a tour of gas stations. We need to pay attention to money, but it shouldn't be about the money."
Me? It really shouldn't be about me, either. I've seen that "me" is a really small space. "Me" isn't enough to make me happy.
To the parent: If I may ask, where did you wind up? A Christian Marxist? An atheist that respects some of the teaching and who is skeptical of capitalism? Or where?
Money. And lemme tell you, have lots of it is totally awesome.
Plenty of people have money, but drink themselves to death because they’re still so unhappy.