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Comment by phs318u | Hacker News Reader

One could just as easily say the same for working class folks that continue to buy into the myth sold by MAGA populists in the US.

To me it hinges on the following:

“Throughout his text, Valtin emphasizes, as he does with the Hamburg example, the contrast between the movement’s rank and file and its leadership. The former are often described as heroic, long-suffering idealists. The latter, in his telling, are self-interested, vainglorious despots-in-waiting.”

It’s just that being among the former group, usually blinds you to the latter group, because those folks are initially viewed as being part of the former group too. It takes LOTS of convincing for idealistic people to wake up to the fact that they’ve been played. Irrespective of the ideology.

EDITED to correct auto-correct. Honestly, I don’t know why I bother posting from my phone.

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Yes, I suspect “The leadership has corrupt/naive/out of touch/power hungry elements, but our leaders are better than the other guys and my rank-and-file peers are great. Besides, the cause is too important to give up” is probably a near-universal sentiment among the politically active.

MAGA didn't have a whole canon of pseudo theory a la Karl Marx.

Bit of a stretch to compare normie-level citizen political interest to a cloak and dagger ideological revolution.

Communism has a savior complex, international adherents, a whole manifesto, and curious ethnic persuasions.

MAGA had broad appeal without the mysticism and radicalism.

Yes fascism has broad appeal without a cohesive ideology. It seems like in your telling that's a positive?

Fascism by definition would not be cohesive, but whoever wins power is sure to bring it together as best they can. As i understand it, fascism is simply joining political groups according to core values.

Fascism in Italy was a response to communist subterfuge. Communism is pure ideology, an intellectual politics. When there is war, famine, strife, suddenly politics of ideas don't make a lot sense. Core values switch from identity to survival. That didn't stop the communist from trying to establish a new rule amidst the strife, and communists are known to use destabilization tactics everywhere they want regime change. In fact, nothing is below communists tactics, because they believe they are liberating you. I would say any reaction to that in a time of crisis is justified.

Communists are just fascists about vague ideas they have been led to believe. Whereas no ideology is required for a politics of basic needs and survival.

What you're describing (of Communists) sounds exactly like the Crusaders, Al Qaida, and many of the "actions" (ostensibly in the name of liberal democracy) since the 50's (I include here various small and not-so-small wars, and engineered coups). The "faithful" behind all those causes believed they were "liberating" others too. With similar ends-driving-means behaviours and outcomes. I suspect that in most of those examples too, the motivations of most of the leaders was far more banal.

Sure, and now you have to reckon that 9/11 was not done from the top by radical "jihadists". In other words, fanatical muslims could not have been the real planners, only the brainwashed operators.

What banal, even-headed plan was 9/11 then? And who was really behind it? The act of 9/11 was dramatic, but hardly tactical, unless the tactic was to have the U.S. respond a certain way. Like the author the book in this thread, 9/11 operators probably acted against their own interests. In other words, Muslims could not have been behind the actual thinking, for any intelligent leader would know the U.S. would retaliate hard.

I find it hard to take your comment seriously when you imply that unlike Communism, MAGA doesn’t have a saviour complex. The regard that many MAGA adherents hold Donald Trump could only be described as messianic.

EDITED to add that MAGA has its own canon of pseudo-theory based on the mythology of QAnon.

You're saying QAnon on 4chan is the same as Karl Marx, Lenin, international conspiracy, etc? Which one led to one world war already, Communism or QAnon? Which one might turn Ukraine/Russia into the next one?

Trump/QAnon mythos is for memes, maybe a little cope, nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. MAGA was a hat, not a political philosophy backed by ideologues the world over.

Communists really believe they are doing liberation politics or w/e. MAGA folks just want to BBQ or w/e. MAGA people are not lining to force regime changes in foreign countries.

MAGA was a movement, communism is a whole ideology.

EDIT: by savior complex, i mean they think they are saving you, from capitalism. MAGA-likes have no such complex about saving other people. They would never join a foreign legion like communists did.

You raise some interesting points.

In your first statement you juxtapose QAnon vs Marx and Lenin (I presume you mean the bodies of political theory they propose), AND ... international conspiracy. Firstly, QAnon is entirely embracing of international conspiracies, embracing and reframing existing ones and generating new variations. Secondly, in the minds of "believers" who, I would hazard a guess, have not dived deeply into their team's canon - yes - they are effectively the same. A body of thought that drives particular fervently held beliefs and behaviours irrespective of the actual details. True believers don't care about details in the same way that fundamentalist christians don't care about biblical scholarship.

You are clearly wrong stating that nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. As evidence, I refer you to consider just a few of these videos. You won't have to scroll far. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+me...

As evidence that MAGA is considered as more than just a hat (by the MAGA equivalent of the intellectual elites and their readers), I offer "The MAGA Doctrine" by Charlie Kirk, which is clearly highly rated by the over 2000 people that bothered to rate it. https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062974688/reasonmag...

You state that "MAGA folks just want to BBQ" as if Jan 6 never happened. Really? Can you really sustain the belief that those folks were all a bunch of pranksters and didn't come with a belief that they were going to change America?

"Embracing of conspiracy" is not what I mean. You are using newspeak definition for conspiracy. QAnon bites on "conspiracy theories" (that's what you mean) but does not run an international operation infiltrating foreign governments. Communism was/is an international conspiracy to change regimes in other countries.

Show me how QAnon is equal to Marx in universities, academics, and actual politics. Show me Putin's allegiance to MAGA. Show me QAnon has the wherewithal to compose a foreign legion, topple governments, etc. MAGA and QAnon is kitsch.

All your comparisons are nothing and you exaggerate. You're one of those people who believes Jan 6 was a serious threat? So you are r3tarded. Go pray 140 seconds for the "injured security guards" of Jan 6 lol.

For one, communistic and communist-adjacent ideas predate the formalised theoretical framework by hundreds of years, while the formal concepts have over one and a half centuries head start on MAGA/QAnon.

If the last 50 years have taught us anything, it’s that even the most egregiously stupid ideas can take hold in society to become unquestioned axioms among significant chunks of the population.

As for your personal attacks, they say way more about you than me.

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