Hacker News Reader

Comment by II2II | Hacker News Reader

Restaurants must be happy that I am not the type of person who eats out more than once or twice a year. I don't tip unless there is table service. I withhold tips if the quality of the product is bad (sorry servers). Even in social situations. That doesn't mean I don't tip when it is appropriate, but I view it as more of an incentive for good service than to reinforce bad business practices.

I'm not sure how I would respond to sneaky surcharges since I haven't encountered it. Most likely, I would pay and never go back. If the amount was excessive and I was on my own, I would likely protest it and never go back.

View on HN

Servers make $2.14 an hour in Texas, they're fully dependent on tips. They often/always have zero control over the kitchen or management's ability to do staffing. Keep this in mind when you eat in that state.

Still required by law to pay the difference up to minimum wage.

Still only 7.25 but let's be accurate.

Law and practice can often be different. Often "the agreement" is cash tips are not declared on taxes, and you don't hassle the company when you make an hourly shortfall. My impression is that arrangement is far more common than companies actually making sure you get minimum wage every hour.

The IRS assumes servers get a certain amount of tips, so if you don't report close to what they expect, you run a high risk of being audited.

True. The loophole is that most tips are on credit cards and hence automatically reported. There is no distinction of cash vs CC tips when reporting. So effectively zero dollars in cash tips is being reported.

In the 90s I delivered pizzas for one of the big companies. I raised that if I didn't make tips the company was supposed to pay me $5.50 instead of the $3.25 that was my wage. The boss said, ok, but if we do that then you have to report your cash tips" - the "agreement" was quite explicit

That is not unique to Texas.

Several states. Official Dept of Labor breakdown:

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk&ab_channel=Peaco...

In WA (and I think CA) they are required to make state/local min wage ($15/hour) before tips are considered.

Same in Oregon, other than minimum wage being lower (and variable depending on where you are).

That's if and only if you make enough declared tips to bring you over minimum wage for that period. Otherwise they have to give you minimum.

But it also means that if you snag a $40 dollar tip or something you're basically down to $2 an hour for that day. By comparison some states like California requires minimum wage + tips.

If you live in America you're an asshole if you do this. Tipping is the well-established cultural way for servers to make income. It is -not- something reserved for situations where good service is to be incentivized. Maybe in other countries ... but not the United States.

> Tipping is the well-established cultural way for servers to make income.

One could also argue that its a means for companies to intentionally under-pay their staff while also re-directing any anger at being exploited from the company to the consumer.

Perfect divide and conquer tactics that has somehow become culturally engrained to the point that if anyone refuses to be part of this macabre tragedy they are framed the villain.

Either way, sticking it to the man by denying waitstaff a tip is a poor method to fix an inequity.

Just tip, so your server can get closer to a living wage for their hard work.

Do you tip the janitors of each place you frequent? What makes wait staff any more deserving of a living wage than other occupations? Realistically tipping is just a subsidy for corporations who choose to take more profit instead of pay a living wage to their workers.

Wait staff in many states make below minimum wage, with tips expected to make up the rest. So I always tip wait staff and will still tip when theses laws change.

I also try to tip everyone I can when I have the means. Yes, I’d tip janitors, their job sucks, as do most jobs where you have to deal with the general public, and they’re underpaid.

The "expectation" of tips making up the rest is really just an expectation from the business that you will needlessly subsidize their payroll, in all 50 states the employer is mandated to always pay the minimum wage even if zero tips are earned https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips

I say tipping is unnecessary because there exist a few states like California who ban the practice of paying a lower "cash wage" and allowing businesses to keep tips for themselves. Anecdotally, I notice that typical restaurant bills in California are not any more expensive than nearby states like Nevada, Colorado, or Arizona.

I say tipping is necessary, for me, because it helps people out.

I don't live in that place so the advice isn't important. Also I think its fair to argue that joining this macabre dance is also a poor method to fix an inequity.

If its true what others say tips are deducted so their employers pay below minimum wage then why not pay the server outside of the transaction so the employer is forced to do what they should have been doing in the first place?

I always tip cash when possible.

Truthfully, while it IS well established, this is only because the class of “owners” have beaten it into us (workers/consumers) and it is a great example of capitalism gaslighting more exploitation.

Is it capitalism? That doesn't sound like it's specifically the result of the free market at work. I don't love the situation, but it seems like it's kind of a nuanced history that started with extra incentive for exceptional service, which changed over time. Why? I don't know. But ultimately we (in the US) know that we should be expecting to pay ~20% on top of our bill, and take that into consideration when we're making the decision to eat at a table service establishment.

Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean a free market. It just means that capital is controlled by private entities as opposed to the state.

Capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a free market.

Part of the exploitation process, imho inherent to capitalism, involved a migration from your “tip to good service” to “opportunity to save” (money) by the owners.

I am, admittedly, a leftist and incredibly untrusting of anything where workers are not an equal part of the ownership in a business, so I know I jump too conclusion/assumption quicker than I prob should. But, I think there is no doubt that there is a lot of FUD around what would happen if staff were paid a living wage, all meant to distract to keep profit in pockets of the owner.

(Anecdotally, I don’t remember tipping being the norm when I visited Europe. But it was some time ago.)

Tipping is uncommon here in the NL. You just don't do it - even if they deliver your pizza.. they'll have a delivery charge and that's it. You might do it at high end restaurants, where I've heard of it being done. It's a complete contrast to the US. In more and more restaurants (esp. in NY) tips are becoming given directly to the wait staff less often anyways. They'll put all tips to the tip jar, then the restaurant takes some percent (sometimes as much as 50%) and the rest gets divvied up amongst the wait staff or even the entire restaurant.

It has nothing to do with 'capitalism', in case you think the alternative is socialism where everything will be perfect (you'll be lucky to get any service at all when salary is not tied to customer satisfaction, as Russians used to their country's culture found to their pleasant surprise when they crowded up at the first McDonald's just before the USSR broke up). And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources to run a business of their own as a cooperative and split the profits..as well as the losses.

Australia has some of the highest minimum wages in the world (with its own negative effect on small business owners) and you pay exactly the sum total of what you ordered on the menu as all prices are quoted inclusive of applicable taxes. Tipping is your prerogative if you feel the service was exemplary.

The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food.

The alternative to capitalism is not socialism, but I understand where you are coming from.

I believe the kind of character(capital owner) utilizing the current system is going to be best tuned to exploit; a process made easiest (in regards to US service industries) by our “tipping culture.”

> And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources

You are “technically” correct but really so very wrong in practice. That same exploitation driven by capitalism makes it so hard to “pull yourself up by bootstraps” even in a group, if you’re always (by design) one paycheck away from homelessness. (Also a caste kept alive by design.)

> The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food.

I completely agree!

What I don’t get is tipping for take out. Like, no server was involved, just someone handing you a box at the restaurant, and you are still expected to tip 20% (Or is it 25% now?).

Does anyone actually expect you to tip for takeout? I kind of assume the point-of-sale system including tip options on there is just because the system doesn’t have an easy way to disable it for takeout orders.

The ordering is done online.

If you live in non-America this is a perfectly reasonable position.

So what you're saying is that we should tip no matter what?

Yes

I think they’re saying that in America a tip is not a voluntary extra payment in gratitude for exceptionally good service. It’s a consultant free for hiring an independent subcontractor.

I'm sorry, I didn't hire an independent subcontractor, I bought goods from a national chain with very rich investors and executives.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com