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Comment by MDWolinski | Hacker News Reader

The concept of tipping is for "tipped" positions in restaurants. Someone in a Tipped position earns far less then minimum wage, which is made up by customer Tips.

So this leads into my frustration with the proliferation of tipping, which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services), is someone working at Starbucks making tipped wages or at/above minimum. If it's the latter, then they shouldn't be tipped except in extraordinary customer service situations.

It would be interesting to see how tips in restaurants that have drip pricing have changed since the implementation of them.

All that being said, I love in France (and I'm sure other parts of Europe) where there's a service charge added to each bill and that's it. I can leave some extra coins if I wanted to, but otherwise additional tips are expected. There, wait staff are paid a livable wage.

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> which seems to have started at Starbucks (edit: at least that's where I first saw it occurring for counter services)

In my experience, it existed before in the form of tip jars (in NYC area), but really blew up when tablet point of sale systems like Clover came into the picture.

They earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar.

And then the point of sale providers got even more greedy and removed the no tip option, and started making it so users had to press “custom tip” in order to tip zero or otherwise increase the friction of not tipping.

> They [Clover] earn a percent of the transaction, so adding a simple option to increase the amount of the transaction is a no brainer for increasing profits. And the act of actually having to press no tip is better at guilting people than simply being able to ignore a tip jar.

I have wondered about this as a possible motive. I assumed that shops paid a monthly fee, or perhaps a per-transaction fee. But they're paying based on gross revenue? Do all POS systems work this way?

I would assume all POS systems have to take a percent cut, given that they clear credit card transactions. They have to at least take 2-3% to cover the cc transaction fee.

Oh sure, I figured they pass that charge through. But even that charge is not a straight percentage, is it? I always thought it was a percentage plus a constant.

The CC transaction fee is generally about half of that. A normal sized restaurant will have their own merchant accounts for CC transactions and not pay the POS provider any percentage.

According to https://www.clover.com/pricing/quick-service-restaurant

Clover's fees are:

Card-present transactions 2.3% + 10¢

Keyed‑in transactions 3.5% + 10¢

So if you have a merchant acct, you'd have to negotiate rates with Clover et al. directly?

That's just one POS system, with a very unfavorable price. Most restaurants of medium size and up will not pay high rates like that on their transactions. If you have a merchant account you negotiate rates with your bank (or other account provider). The POS just connects with that. And yes, these POS systems are an expensive one-time purchase, with some yearly or monthly fees. However much more economical than paying on transactions.

If you're a smaller actor, there are POS systems that make their money on your transactions, but even among those Clover is a really bad deal. Compare to Zettle for example, that comes with a POS system, has no monthly costs and a flat 1.75% fee: https://www.zettle.com/gb/pricing

Every payment processor that I know of takes a percentage. The structure might vary (e.g. percentage cliffs based on revenue), but it’s never fixed on a monthly basis.

(So yes, they’re incentivized to introduce friction to the tipping flow — it always means more money for them.)

There is obviously social pressure against pressing "No Tip". I feel it.

But then I remember that a tip is for good customer service. Starbucks didn't provide me any customer service, they simply transferred the coffee from their vat into my cup. At which point I can feel justified in declining.

I guess they're taking advantage of people who aren't familiar with this view of tipping, which I'd argue is the standard view in the U.S.

Were tip jars common in NYC before Starbucks popularized them? I don't remember them at all but maybe it depended on the type of place?

I would say they were common enough per my memory of 2000s, certainly not ubiquitous like the POS tipping options today.

It was common enough to be part of Seinfeld, at 1m10s:

https://youtu.be/OOZn95g2RDE

However, I do not feel like there was any cultural expectation of tips for counter service. Or I did not notice because I never used cash anyway.

Oh that's a great catch, and that episode was 1996, so wouldn't have been a response to Starbucks.

Now it's really got me wondering how far back those plastic tip buckets at mom and pop shops like pizzerias and deli counters go.

No. People would have stolen them.

Pre-Covid, wife and I went and tried a Grilled Cheese place in town that had been open for at least a year. As we were checking out on the tablet they had, my wife asked something about the Tip prompt on it. The cashier said, "Don't worry about it, the tips just go to management."

So, makes me wonder at every other place, how well the tips are distributed.

The other area I have an issue with (although I still tip here) is with my barber. She owns the business and she's the only one I go to. Technically speaking, she's keeping all the profit, so is a tip still warranted?

My water delivery company added the ability to add a tip for the delivery driver. I'm waiting for the county trash collection to offer the same option.

> The cashier said, "Don't worry about it, the tips just go to management."

This happens, but it IS illegal in most jurisdictions.

Our family went out to eat a nice restaurant over the holidays and our bill had the '20% economic recovery fee' tacked on at the end. Naturally we didn't leave a tip and were happy to return a few days later to repeat the process.

I'm usually happy to tip at restaurants, and if there is any surcharge on the bill like this then I just consider it the tip, as they often tack on for large groups.

Not tipping your waitstaff? That's cruel - that's part of their pay, which they need to get to minimum wage. Expect to be treated like dirt next visit. I would.

Waitstaff should expect that any surcharge, aside from taxes, will result in a lower tip especially because those surcharges are usually described as tips on the bill. Whether or not they are actually distributed as tips by the manager isn't my problem.

Regardless of your perception of fairness, you should be aware that waitstaff usually remember repeat customers who never leave a tip.

It might not be a great idea to frequent the place if that's your chosen form of social protest.

So scary, what will they do? Frown as hard as they can?

It usually involves bodily fluids.

I got food poisoning when at an American university and I used the university hospital. They followed up with me to ask me whether I ate out anywhere. Next thing you know they've gone and done an inspection on the place and it's closed for a couple of days. Seems a bit high risk.

Tbh I think I got sick off my own food but I was doing the thing where I just honestly gave them all the info. I never really expected anything to come of it.

No, restaurant workers will not mess with your food in that way. No matter what they think of you as a client. Ask people you know who have experience in that sector and they will tell you that such things are absolutely taboo. Anybody who did anything like that even once - or even suggests it - would be instantly fired and blacklisted in the community.

If the waiters or chefs hate your guts, at most they will swear in the kitchen.

They were treated like dirt on this visit--being asked to pay an unexpected 20% extra.

Not by the waitstaff. Why not kick the dog on the way out too?

A waiter who doesn’t ensure that you know about such unexpected fee is doing a terrible job.

Absolutely. A server who doesn't explicitly tell the customer about these fees in advance is complicit with it, and I'll assume they get the full benefit of these fees in lieu of tips.

>Our family went out to eat a nice restaurant over the holidays and our bill had the '20% economic recovery fee' tacked on at the end. Naturally we didn't leave a tip and were happy to return a few days later to repeat the process.

If you used a card to pay, you may well find yourself listed by name at https://bitterwaitress.com (N.B., this used to be hosted on the open web, now it's behind the Facebook login wall, so I won't be looking at it).

> Someone in a Tipped position earns far less then minimum wage, which is made up by customer Tips.

Couple states in the US don’t allow tipped staff to make less than minimum wage and tips can’t be counted towards the wage to meet the minimum.

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