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Comment by yafbum | Hacker News Reader

There has been a deplorable profusion of dark patterns in restaurant checkout UIs, such as offering preselected tip amounts set along a 18-20-25% scale (standard used to be 15%), making it quite difficult to leave a custom tip, etc.

Add to this various "surcharges" and other mandatory fees added for this or that (my favorite: mandatory "resort fees" for hotels - seriously why is that not just rolled into the price of the stay?), and the service industry in the US has a serious price transparency crisis. It is quite literally impossible to predict the final cost of service, so as a rule of thumb I have come to generally expect to be out of pocket about 50% - 80% more than the listed price.

Any other country would call this fraud.

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Don't forget:

- Asking for a tip for takeout orders

- Asking for the payment including tip before you've received service, often via one of those stupid QR menus that does who knows what with your order data that is now tied to your phone

- Not having 20% as a tip option, but something like 18%, 23%, 27%

- Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip

I want servers to make a livable wage. I'm willing to pay more. I want my prices transparent, and I don't want the mountain of guilt and social pressure.

Also calculating the tip including the tax, instead of just the products/service provided.

(Shouldn't be tipping on tax, if you really want to send it to the IRS. :)

Thinking about your comment on QR codes -- If memory serves its not difficult on iOS to set something up to display the QR code data as text instead of acting on it.

I assume it's similarly opaque to use a URL for the same purpose, which would almost certainly be a "enter your phone / email so we can send you your URL...".

In your opinion, assuming electronic ordering, what is the best alternative to a QR code when considering privacy + ease of use?

An analog fallback via paper menu. If I'm doing sit down ordering, I don't want to order electronically unless you give me an ipad. And I don't want to pay until the meal is over. Period.

So "assuming electronic ordering" your suggestion is for them to provide a device. That makes sense.

> - Looming over your shoulder while you enter the tip

I'm with you on the rest, but I find this one dramatically exaggerated by a certain type of person. If you're paying by card, the server is going to be around, waiting for you to finish so they can give you a copy of the receipt.

I find that there is a certain type of person will always describe this as "looming" or "guilted" or feel "social pressure".

Your feelings are legitimate, but the logic behind them is not. While there is definitely pressure to tip (and tip more and more), I've never met a server who would actually act in any way outwardly disappointed by 1) tip of 15%, 2) no tip on takeout, 3) no tip on counter service.

While some people will say "you SHOULD tip 20%" (or more), the actual staff will consider anything beyond the old standard bonus.

You should avoid characterizing someone as "a certain type of person." Especially an internet stranger that you do not know in the least.

I have encountered plenty of servers who hand you the card reader, step back, turn around, whatever, then take it when you're done and walk away. Zero issues. That has been fine.

I have likewise encountered overly pushy servers, often those who knew they did a less than stellar job, who literally stood over my shoulder looking at the screen, pointing over my shoulder saying "and here's where you can enter the tip." That sure as hell is creating a sense of "looming" and "guilt" and "social pressure" (if not physical pressure). I've likewise encountered servers who deliver less than stellar service who complained quite vocally when I dared to leave a 15% tip (they should probably have received 0%).

Don't mistake your personal experiences for those of others. Don't presume how you feel about social encounters is how others should feel or shame them when they don't align with your world view.

100% this

Some of these places will also auto add grauituity charges as well for larger parties, and auto select a tip so if you don't look at the bill you could be footing out as much as 40%. Super shady UI practices.

I don't want to be guilt tripped in tipping for a baked item for instance, or a chipotle style served food restaurant.

Adding a tip for large parties has been a common practice for decades—long before the current trend of adding tips for everything.

Whether you agree with the idea of tips or not, that’s the system we have, and in that system large parties very often take up far more resources at a restaurant than smaller ones. They take more time to leave, they clog up the kitchen (as all dishes need to come out at the same time), they often occupy multiple servers at the same time (when a normal table takes only one), and very often don’t tip at a level anywhere close to the standard 15% (with so many people, everyone thinks they can get away with a low tip and others at the table will make up for it). Servers get charged taxes as if they received those tips, so getting shorted actually costs them money (paying taxes on money they didn’t receive).

This practice is different than dark patterns, as it’s actually addressing a real problem with the customers that’s been known be restaurants for a long time. It’s not the same thing as trying to trick or guilt people into tipping.

I’m not buying this overall. Large groups typically order more alcoholic drinks while they are spending more time, which is hugely profitable for restaurants. Also, the more waiters argument doesn’t hold when there are more people/tables. I agree that bringing out more food at the same time is more effort, but this is not insurmountable.

It’s basically a grift to get more money from the suckling pigs of wedding parties, birthday parties, and corporate dinners. Basically, extract more money from the big spenders. Really hate this practice.

Sounds like you’ve never waited tables!

Two-tops are the best for earnings, both for the restaurant and the server. Easier for a charismatic career server to separately charm three couples on dates than a single table of six all at once. And higher turnover is better for revenue. 1-on-1 business meeting? They’ve got work to do. Couples on dates? They’ve got fucking to do. Smaller parties -> faster turnover -> more money.

Large parties are worse in every way. Special table arrangements for reservations made in advance mean more seats left empty while waiting for the arrival. People at large gatherings will buy less food/drink just as often as they’ll buy more. Sometimes it’s a work party where everything is expensed; cool! But lots of companies don’t cover alcohol expenses, which is your most profitable item. Just as often it’s a going away party for a bunch of retail workers where everyone nurses one drink for two hours and splits 3 appies across the whole table.

Large parties suck. Some servers prefer them, but those people are heroes (and rare). Minimum 18% for large parties is standard where I am, but if it was my call it would be 30.

> Easier for a charismatic career server to separately charm three couples on dates than a single table of six all at once.

As an European from a non-tipping country this sounds really horrific to me. So you actively need to "charm/seduce" people into giving you larger tips to make over minimum wage?

It's worth noting that it's not just over minimum wage, your hourly can often be miles ahead of any other unskilled labor depending on how busy you are. Both of my sisters would frequently clear $400+ a night on weekends, amounting to over $50 an hour.

The state minimum wage is $10/hour, so they can make over a week's worth of minimum wage pay in a single Saturday.

Ultimately waiters and waitresses are hustling so they get paid like engineers, not Wal-Mart greeters.

Yea, I've seen the videos about Hooters waitresses clearing a grand a night just from tips. It's absolutely bonkers.

Perhaps it’s an English translation thing, but note that I didn’t use “seduce”, intentionally. But yes, people who are more charismatic/friendly/charming/whatever other word, will make more in tips. Which is easier to do with smaller table sizes, hence my point.

I agree with you though! As I said, I also hate tipping, even as someone who grew up with it and worked (pretty successfully) in the industry. Lots of other service businesses have successfully demonstrated that you can incentivize good service without requiring tips (non-commission retail, etc).

That's one nice thing about living in the EU, that it mandates full price disclosure for some industries. (Anyone got a list?)

In particular, when it says your airline ticket is NNN€, you will pay than NNN€. No screwball fees up the wazoo.

Still plenty of restaurants with “service charge” at the bottom of the menu

That's at worst a couple euros per person, very far from a 10%-20% upcharge.

I have a photo of a menu from Munich earlier this year, not a particularly fancy restaurant - just a pizza place with a table on the street.

12.5% service charge at the bottom.

But it was up front, in genuine print, not buried on a terminal.

Just wait to you get to Italy or Spain, sometimes restaurants in very touristy areas will charge different service charges based on seating area. Eg nice area is 20% or more service charge, vs maybe 12.5% for a table without a view. You don’t see that until you are already in your seat, and then you have to deal with the social awkwardness of asking to move tables (which some don’t do because they are some mixture of introverted or embarrassed).

Yep, in the UK it's almost always a 12.5% service charge. Almost always with terrible service of course.

This is because nobody carries any cash around anymore. And it's not socially acceptable for waiters to ask customers how much they want to tip. You just tap your card on the portable terminal.

As for the service being terrible, it can be. But British people generally don't like to be interrupted during their meal. So the waitstaff have a tougher job to be present but not harassing.

> don't like to be interrupted during their meal

it's mostly around being interrupted mid sentence, in my experience (and it's certainly the thing that annoys me the most)

It depends on the country. It is not the case in France for instance. I don't know exactly what the law say, but you shouldn't have to pay for anything that you didn't order, and you shouldn't pay more than what's written on the menu.

Tips are appreciated but not expected. I's say that if you are used to the American way, tip what you would normally tip above your baseline. For example if you normally tip 15%, and 20% for good service, then in France, don't tip for average service, and tip 5% for good service.

It's been that way for all kind of online services since 2011 [1].

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/fr/MEMO_1...

Lol, more like 20/25/30

15/18/20 was in 2018

Try taking a taxi in NYC. IIRC the preselected tip options are 20%, 25% and 30%, and this is on top of a base fare of $100 to Newark when an Uber is literally half price.

Fortunately it is still possible to choose the tip amount. I just move it to 15%.

if they have 15% available I choose that

If they don't I do a custom $0 tip and tell the restaurant why I did it

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