Edit: to give you credit, I think that may have been your point. I lost track of context in the thread.
But you can require that all posted prices include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities; AND that the price on the bill include all taxes, fees, and expected gratuities.
Basically, just push the tip into the noise and require that the posted price be the sum of all the hidden fees.
I would say tipping is decreasing in the UK. It's pretty normal not to tip in restaurants now because the pandemic changed payment methods.
Before 10% was the standard (only if you pay after eating though).
I get this sounds like a random aside, but tipping is something that religious communities at least try to connect to people with (which surprisingly includes patrons who leave $0 tip and a "here's a tip, your pathway to %afterlife%" business card). If there was a push to make it not the social norm, I could see churches crusading to keep it a part of our culture forever.
Maybe it'd be OK to outlaw it.
So as a counter to that reputation pastors began to admonish folks to tip well, to show them the love of Jesus as 20%.
Under that system:
- You can still have tipping with only a trivial amount of extra work.
- There would then be common knowledge -- in the technical sense [1] -- across all parties, leading to expectation alignment.
- There would be a clear mechanism for competition over expected tipping levels, letting people know they're getting into at each place.
I expect that such a system would to more establishments preferring the no-tip option, but even if not, it would remove the worst parts of the tipping system.
[1] i.e. where everyone knows the same things, and everyone knows everyone's else's level of knowledge about those things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_(logic)
Let's assume that people are actually tipping "people of color" worse. Do you think getting rid of tipping is somehow fixing this perceived racism? If so, why do you believe you can legislate a personality trait out of people?
No you don't. If tipped wages are more discriminatory you can ban them. Even if no racism is involved, somehow! And that's not trying to legislate a personality trait.
You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up.
You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims.
I didn't say people were racist, I gave a link supporting the idea that tipping is harmful.
See where I said "Even if no racism is involved, somehow!"
Even if a lot of people.. look it doesn't matter for this topic.
> You're talking about taking jobs and money from a specific group of people so you can implement your ideological beliefs that have zero data to back them up.
Mostly I want to get rid of the idea of a tipped minimum, and fix some of the other issues around minimum wage. I don't want to take any jobs away.
> You haven't provided any proof this sort of racial tipping exists but you've certainly provided plenty of proof of wanting implement your own racist ideas to redistribute money from a very specific skin color, while claiming other skin colors are helpless victims.
You're reading a lot of things in my posts that aren't there. I just want all the waiters to get a good paycheck and make tips exceptional. "Pay everyone in the same job at the same tier the same amount" is not redistribution.
You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you.
Tying a possible bonus to the way you act in customer service facing role has a lot of benefits.
"In addition it gets rid of any bias in wages (more attractive people more attractive people" Why are higher wages for a subjectively attractive person a bad thing... Are they not driving better business? Do you think it's somehow more altruistic to provide subjectively uglier individuals the same wage? Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait. Your point is moot anyway, in a capitalistic society people can just choose to visit another business where the staff has the traits they desire.
I've not had a pleasant experience in most other western nations. I won't say it was bad but it's nowhere near as efficient and you have to really get waiters attention before they'll do anything.
In my personal experience, it makes it worse. They annoy me with attempts to be ingratiating. They fish for tips with forms and devices which creates awkward and unpleasant situations, especially if I didn't like the service. There is nothing pleasant for me about having someone watching me and trying to guess when I want something. I know when I want something and I am perfectly capable of telling them when that moment comes.
> You ought to try sitting down in a restaurant in the EU. They do the bare minimum to serve you.
I live in the EU and I find the service at restaurants a hundred times better here. Nobody is pestering me, nobody is insulting both of us by pretending to be my new best friend. They stay out of my way until I ask for something.
If I wanted to ask for something I'd stay home, they're called waiters and not for a reason. There's no "pretending to be a friend" going on, it's just called being cordial.
Your point seems to be that there is no inherent moral good in distributing resources equally among people as opposed to allowing inequality to naturally emerge and/or optimizing for total value across all people. I don't necessarily disagree: it is hard to argue from first principles that each individual should be given the same weight, as opposed to any other arbitrary system like giving each family the same weight, or taking intelligence into account. However, it is also wrong to pretend that there isn't significant precedent in society for assigning each individual equal moral weight — for example, by allowing everyone an equal vote in elections, which has clearly been a useful practice. And I consider it obvious that "Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait" isn't something that would be widely agreed upon.
The ONLY way that is possible is to bring down the higher achieving people to the lowest common denominator. You cannot bring people UP past a certain level.
"And I consider it obvious that "Bias based on attractiveness is no worse than bias based on personality or any other trait" isn't something that would be widely agreed upon." -
This completely case dependent there are careers where intelligence is sought and there are careers where attractiveness may be advantageous. The only reason this is "obvious" to you is because you've been tainted by recent modern thought that believes there's no value in physical attractiveness.The fact your bias towards certain physical traits is fine while other physical traits are off limits should tell you something about the cognitive dissonance of this though pattern. Maybe you ought to ask yourself why it's ok to be biased against physical attractiveness but not physical skin color????
So no, tips do not promote a better customer experience.
I agree it's possible to have a good custom experience without tipping but I do not agree that they don't promote better customer experience. Bonuses, tipping etc. are pretty powerful way of enticing people to be better at their jobs.
The only reason it starts to breakdown is because there are really cheap people out there who will skimp on the tip and then complain when waiters treat them like shit.
If you are a regular at a place and you tip well, they'll spoil you.
Tipping predates minimum wage laws. (indeed the first laws to ban tipping in the US also predate minimum wage laws, but it clearly didn't stick)
I've gotten bad service while traveling in the US - how can I not tip? Someone tell me, please, because when I'm paying it's usually before I even get the service and I'm already supposed to pre-pay a 20 percent tip or some such from a checkout prompt that doesn't always let me opt out.
Or when it does let me opt out, it's in plain view of the staff, of course; in a "go ahead and hit 0%, take a chance on whether we'll shit in your food" kind of way.
This seems nuts to me - if the service is truly atrocious, to the point where it’s questionable whether the service I asked for was delivered at all, I’m going to refuse to pay at all.
If it’s run of the mill atrocious service and I want to prove a point via tipping, I’ll tip $0.01.
Are we to pretend all supermarket checkout clerks do an equally good job? No, but we don't tip them. They get paid a wage which is bundled into the price of every item I buy at the store. Same as every other cost of business like their insurance, electric bill, etc.
Part of the issue is a seemingly ingrained concept of "fairness" between when we do the same job we want the same reward (a grape not a cucumber stupid researcher!) ... And combine that with the propensity to overestimate our own contributions and underestimate the difficulty of what others do.. Suddenly even rationally fair "feels" unfair.