Comment by Mikeb85 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Mikeb85 | Hacker News Reader

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A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda.

There was far more concerted Russification of Ukraine than Polish-ification...

The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification.

> «kraj» has descended from a Proto-Slavic of *krajь. It can mean «region», «country» or «land»,

Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still.

> O-krajina" that you are citing can mean «fringe» or «edge» but not «borderland».

Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different.

Language does evolve though, now there's different words (and more words) for edge, border, suburb, periphery, etc...

It's not clear that Kraj on it's own was "edge" or "border" though. Okraj definitely was however

> Moscow was founded in 1147

So I got one date wrong (I was thinking of Moscow's rise as an actual city state post-Mongol yoke, not the date they made a fort in a swamp especially since the first town was completely destroyed by the Mongols) but first mention of "Ukraine" is 1187. Long before the Russian Empire, before the Mongol invasions, long before Moscow was anything more than a small fort.

> A lot of words to repeat Russian propaganda.

Duly noted. Ignorance, the lack of historical as well as linguistic knowledge, and the lack of reputable and verifiable counterpoints on your behalf is now officialy Russian propaganda.

> The Ukrainian language is the Ukrainian language, what's spoken in the east is considered a Creole that's a combination of Russian and Ukrainian due to, well, centuries of Russification.

Please cease and desist. The prior statement had specifically called out the fact that Ukrainian has most likely descended – and please do yourself a favour to read it thrice – from the Ruthenian language which was an independent and a separate lingustic development and a separate language from the not yet existing Russian language, however with influences from Polish in what we now know as Western Ukraine. Ukranian being an insignificant dialect of Russian is the Russian Empire time propaganda. I fail to comprehend why you have chosen to contort previously stated facts so blatantly and obviously.

> Obviously. Every second place here is called "X Kraj". Literally the word used for region still.

> Okraj literally means border but it doesn't really matter, edge and border are literally the same thing in English. Dunno why you are insinuating it's different.

I beseech you to allow me to graciously lift the veil of your linguistic confusion. Consider the following examples (languages are listed out strictly in the alphabetical order):

Example 1:

English: the city fringe

Czech: okraj města

Polish: obrzeża miasta

Russian: окраина города (okraina goroda)

Slovak: okraj mesta

Ukrainian: околиця міста (okolycja mista)

Example 2:

English: at the city fringe / at the outskirts of the city

Czech: na okraji města

Polish: na obrzeżach miasta

Russian: на краю города (na kraju goroda)

Slovak: na okraji mesta

Ukrainian: на околиці міста (na okolyci mista)

Example 3:

English: the edge of the world

Czech: okraj světa

Polish: kraniec świata

Russian: край света (metaphorical or archaic) / край земли (kraj sveta / kraj zemli)

Slovak: okraj sveta

Ukrainian: краю світу (kraju svitu)

Example 4:

English: at the edge of the bed

Czech: na okraji postele

Polish: na skraju łóżka

Russian: на краю кровати / на краю постели (na kraju krovati / na kraju posteli)

Slovak: na okraji postele

Ukrainian: на краю ліжка (na kraju ližka)

What is obvious is that in some «kraj» related examples Russian is closer to Czech and Slovak with Ukrainian and Polish being closer to each other rather than Ukrainian being closer to Czech or Slovak (which is utter nonsense from both, historical and linguistic, points of view. But it won't convince you since Czech, Polish, Slovak and Ukranian are all Russian propaganda and are all admittedly Creole languages).

Should you have reputable lingustic counterpoints that can be cross-referenced, please provide them.

> So I got one date wrong […]

You have got too many things wrong, and you have to own up to it, stop spouting nonsense and admit to misrepresenting facts either out of sheer ignorance, or pushing your own personal agenda, or expressing a unsubstantiated strong opinion, or merely possessing a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Most likely a combination thereof.

"the figures from there suggest that Ukrainian inherent intelligibility of Russian is close to zero."

From: https://www.academia.edu/4080349/Mutual_Intelligibility_of_L...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

On the name, including various discussions about the meaning of "Kraj". And the fact that "Krai" is still a type of division of land in Russia.

Ignorance is a bliss, and your linguistic and historical ignorance is admirable as well as it continues to push new limits.

Russian, as a distinct language, is a fairly recent historical development that is slightly over 400 years old, and dates back to the end of Times of Troubles and the end of the Polish–Muscovite War of 1609–1618 when Catholic Poland – after sacking Moscow and keeping it for two years under its rule – eventually ceased to be a threat. Old Ukrainian, as another distinct language, predates the emergence of Russian by a few centuries (if we are to trace its origins back to the Ruthenian language). Granted, it is all Russian propaganda to you nevertheless.

> "… Ukrainian inherent intelligibility of Russian is close to zero."

False. Previously cited, non-representative, examples point to varying degrees of the mutual intelligibility amongst Czech, Polish, Russian, Slovakian and Ukranian. Intellligibility hovers at the 50% level at least. So, no, it is not zero. You are yet to provide a single credible example other than handwaving and vacuous references to a pub style banter.

> On the name, including various discussions about the meaning of "Kraj". And the fact that "Krai" is still a type of division of land in Russia.

Also false. It is one of the many meanings, and you are persevering with twisting facts to suit your own narrative. I have pointed to sources in the Old Ukrainian dating back to 1496 and 1667 in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34471179#34477841, both of which state otherwise. Namely, that «ОУКРАИНА» and «ВКРАИНА» mean [at] «the fringe», «outskirts» or «the edge» (i.e. «окраїна»). You have provided no credible sources to back up your counterpoints so far.

Name-calling and personal attacks are not allowed here, and doubly not on divisive topics.

You can make your substantive points without stooping to that, so please do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492828 also. We have to ban accounts that abuse HN the way you have done in this thread. I don't want to ban you, so we need you not to do this again.

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