Go East, Young Man

I'd like to add a bit of personal perspective to this op-ed.

I personally know the author, Jon Levine, in fact, I'm the guy that got him the "dead-end job" with my family's firm. He's a member of the "I have an Ivy League degree, I deserve a job" a set. Never mind his degree was in history and political science, he felt entitled to a prestigious, high paying job in the worse economy in 70 years.

After a 5 month job search without a callback, I stepped in, did a favor and got him an entry level position at a very small PR firm. This was not a "dead-end job", he was the first hire at a newly formed company, there was definitely an opportunity for him to grow his career in a highly lucrative field. But, being that he went to NYU and Columbia (notice the name dropping in the article), growth didn't come fast enough for him.

We accommodated him (time off, flexible hours) while he spent two months trying to find another job. When nothing stateside panned out, he gave us three days notice before leaving for China. It's been a very surreal day for me, I'm incredibly disappointed that he chose to criticize a job which he only gained through my action.

I don't know whether any of you should go to China, but hopefully I've given you a little perspective on why he did.

TL;DR: I know author, he couldn't hack it stateside, took China job as last restort, not as some enlightened life decision.

I didn't move to China, but Korea, working for a large conglomerate. I was there for two years. I wasn't particularly young, but in early 30's with two kids. There were several expat from the US.

IMHO, the move to the East is worse for Asian Americans than for Caucasians.

Why? Because they expect certain things from what they consider the same race than Caucasians. Over and over, I have seen Caucasians getting a lot of leeways and tolerance for their behaviors, as they look very different from Asian Americans. For Asian Americans, especially those Korean Americans who could speak the language in Korea, they expected the same behaviors as native Koreans. If you don't display what they expected socially, you get cold shoulders. It's even worse in business settings where everyone plays savvy office politics in ever subtle ways. If you can't read or play them, your career will not go anywhere. I've seen VP-level Korean American guys getting crushed, after moving to Korea to jumpstart their careers. I've heard the same from many Japanese Americans who moved back to Japan. I am not sure if it would be the same in China. But, I've also read about Chinese companies hiring Americans or Caucasians for nothing but to increase their credibility for being able to hire a Caucasian.

So if you are a Caucasian, yeah, it could be worth it. As a second or later generation Asian Americans, probably not so much.

>Many critics have rightly pointed out the shocking failures of the Chinese food safety system — the most famous being the tainted-baby-formula scandal of 2008. But what you may not know is that China meted out swift justice in that case to the perpetrators. That is more than can be said for the handling of many corporations in the United States that have harmed their consumers and remain unpunished.

Wow, what a naive fool. Does he really think justice was meted out through these hurried executions? Quick justice is often a symptom of scapegoating.

Instead, I'd say come to Taiwan. All the same good food (or rather even more!), friendly people, great nature, multicultural society, technology everywhere, foreigners are treated well, entrepreneurial spirit, more customer protection (and people stand up for themselves) - and don't have to fight the Great Firewall and political decrees at every step.

(Been here for more than three years and counting:)

Article's espousal of moving "East" here seems a little misguided to me. I've been working in Beijing for the better part of 2yrs and from what I've seen, basically wouldn't suggest moving out here unless you're in it for the long-haul.

The "white-hot" job prospects the author talks about are mainly for English teachers. If you take a look at the job sites he listed, 90%+ of the positions are English teaching. That is all well and good as most Eng teachers here DO make easy money, enjoy a good lifestyle, and get to explore Asia, but all the while they are really just killing time... most leave after not too long and very few are able to succesfully use it as a channel to career advancement/development.

The people who should really think about moving East are those who have developed some real skills & experience other than just being a "Native English speaker", and know there will be some kind of deep-relationship with Asia throughout their careers. I would think that these people are likely to learn the language, stay longer, and do a lot better.

For CS grads or people in tech, if you make the move to one of the larger int'l companies you can make up to 3/4 of the salary back home and live a better lifestyle, AND end up saving more.

Again, like other's have said, it's not for everyone, but for some it can be a great move.

Levine takes an approach to China very much in contrast to my own. From the article, it seems he spends most of his time travelling, relaxing with other expats, and teaching students that are excited about English. As for myself, most of my time is consumed by studying Chinese (a Mercer-like feat), work, and meals with friends (the cheap food costs make dinners out an everyday occurrence, not a once a week treat).

Despite the differences, we both seem to possess the same feeling that life in China possesses a relaxed quality that is hard to find. Even though banks, train tickets, and anything requiring an ID (for instance, internet cafes) can be a complete bureaucratic nightmare, day to day life has a certain peacefulness to it. Perhaps that peacefulness stems from the acceptance that the world around you is hectic and chaotic in a way that is at least somewhat hidden in the U.S.

Of course, other posters are correct in their assertion that you pay for that life in a number of ways. Pollution, reduced wages, poor internet, drinking water from jugs, hospitals operating while still under construction...But I for one feel it is worth it.

For those who have not, I strongly urge you to visit the country. I think you may be surprised by how much it differs from your expectations.

As an aside, I find it humorous that the OWS movement inspired him to move to China. The income inequality here is arguably worse than in his own area. You can buy a scarf on the street for 3 USD, walk a few kilometers and buy one for 100 USD inside a glitzy shopping center. Those at the top live lives of princely luxury compared to those at the bottom selling roasted sweet potatoes from their bikes.

"Pollution is horrible, the country is governed by a strict authoritarian regime, and I can't guarantee you won't be poisoned, but come! There are jobs!"

I am 100% sure China is as socially diverse as the United States, and there are lovely people and places. Really though, this is about as tepid a "come hither" piece as I've ever seen.

I have worked in Beijing for more than 4 years as a researcher for a big American company (Microsoft). Its not that bad here but you definitely have to fight the traffic, pollution, and the great firewall. The political situation is mostly transparent to us, except via web blocking and some weird archaic events (military parades anyone?). Other places in China are a bit better in terms of environment but then those cities are not as comfortable in western niceties (e.g., coffee shops).

If you are experienced in tech, you can always get a job here that pays fairly well; maybe 80% of what you could make back home if you are just a good developer, more if you are very experienced or in management. The talent market in China is very skewed toward junior workers, and so experience is very much desired. The tech scene here is not very deep, although their are some entrepreneurs who do startups (most of them that I know of are in mobile gaming).

I was working out of Dalian and Beijing for a number of years straight after my postgrad as a software engineer / project manager. Great experience, learned the language, was given a lot of responsibility and it was either sink or swim.

Lots of 16+ hour days, they worked me hard but I learned an awful lot. It's a great way to see the world, travel and get exposed to a completely different work culture / ethic.

It's not for everyone but it is definitely an experience that you won't forget!

Surprised no-one here is talking about programming/startup jobs in China. I know there is a small Chinese-based hacker set on HN, so maybe they'll show up later to chime in with more expert opinions.

Basically I've been planning for a few years to make China the focus of my 20s, thinking that being at the convergence of technology and a rising superpower would be pretty powerful. Taught English there in 2007, travelled there again in 2009, studied in HK in 2010 and interned for a games startup in Chengdu last year.

Still, my current plan for the next few years is to stay in the UK - the main reason is that salaries for programmers in China just aren't that attractive. Also, if you want a serious career in China (in whatever sector - counting entrepreneurship as a career here) - a lot of people have advised me that it helps to gain a track record in the West before making a serious move out there.

Note: the following is a mix of experience, second-hand reports and conjecture, I'd really appreciate someone in the know telling me where I'm wrong.

As a graduate programmer competing with Chinese graduates, it looks like salaries are between 5000 and 10000 RMB/mo, depending on location. If you can somehow leverage your foreignerness, you can get more, though I can't think of many ways to do that in the tech industry. Experienced technical management is in high demand, but not really an option straight out of university. Joining a big tech company (Tencent, Baidu, Shanda etc) and hoping to work your way up isn't that great an option, since there's no reason you'll be able to outcompete your hungrier Chinese colleagues. Joining a startup, maybe, but you'll still have to find a way to contribute beyond programming to make a better salary than the next FOB laowai teaching English or pretending to be a DJ. Starting a startup is of course an option, but even riskier out there (I'd feel able to start a tech startup in the West right now, wouldn't think of doing it in China without a few more years real-world experience).

Anyone actually working in China's tech industry with alternative views? Would love to hear them.

As far as economic disparity between rich and poor, social liberties, and corruption: China is far, far worse than the US. Maybe some people can find jobs in China teaching English, but you throw away a lot of other things. This article is optimistic at best.

as a new us immigrant who is originally from mainland china and lives in the us for 1.5 years, I have a totally different opinion with this article. the advice I always give my friends who still live in china is 'leave china as soon as possible, for yourself and your family'. Saying cctv gave fair news just make me laugh. and food was great? he didn't know the extracted oil from drain or dead animal? the freedom you have in china is to download pirated softwares/videos and make your free speech when facing the wall. well, those were just my complaints, but what I didn't agree with this guy was he didn't see the big picture. china is now facing a dead end, and I don't see a way to turn around. the big conflict between gov and citizens, the huge gap between rich and poor, the aging population....

I suspect that many more Chinese, given the option, would emigrate to the West.

As someone who's recently made the move to China (Hong Kong, and not teaching English), I can say it's a great way for native English speakers to jump start their careers and get responsibilities much faster than at home.

Hong Kong is a bit easier getting used to due to a free internet, less pollution, and stricter food safety laws. But I guess there are more opportunities on the mainland.

After having lived in Asia for about 5 years now, I can relate with that post, at least in terms of optimism. Back in Europe I felt that everything was slow and stuck in time, but in Asia you get a feeling that things are actively moving forward, that there is life in the streets. Societies in Asia (I generalize on purpose) feel more dynamic overall, there is a clear sense of freedom flowing in the air.

Disclaimer: I am CS engineer and have been working in China for the past 7 years (always in tech).

I am not sure that representing China/Asia as the next Eldorado for Westerners is that smart; yes it can be a land of opportunities, but I fail to see the real future you would have in "teaching English" in Beijing, Shanghai or anywhere else down here. It is a precarious position (schools are notorious for screwing around with visa, salary and basically anything you should be entitled to), competition is fierce (many disillusioned foreigners who could not find a job and settle for it), with a steady input of fresh candidates.

Now, if you are indeed an English teacher and are trying to build a career abroad, why not? If you are a history graduate settling for an easy to land position, well... One of the commenters (stupandaus) mentioned that Chinese locals usually refer to them as "Losers Back Home"; foreigners do too.

I think however that the excitement of the poster is genuine; China does indeed exhale that energy that you may find hard to find in Western countries (especially Europe). It is a very challenging environment, one that does not necessarily care much if you fail or succeed, but it can be very rewarding if you are up to the task; you can be put very quickly in front of responsibilities and opportunities that would demand a fair amount of experience, connection and luck in the Western world. However, you are still expected to work your ass off if you want to build a serious/successful career, maybe even more fiercely in some aspects than in Northern America or Europe.

He's been there a year and can put in print that this is the 'best decision of his life' ? Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?

> The effects of the Great Recession of 2008 may be felt in the United States for years, but they barely scratched China.

It barely scratched China in metropolitan areas, maybe, but certainly had a large effect in manufacturing hubs like GuangZhou (see documentaries like "The Last Train Home").

As an aside: my parents recently made this move after seeing their two sons live in Taiwan on Rotary Exchange (mid-50s, caucasian, from a podunk town in upstate New York) and are having the time of their lives, but the wealth disparity in mainland China is certainly stunning if not somewhat depressing.

Yeah, as with many of the commenters here, I'm not convinced about this article (I live in HK)

As for this masterpiece of bad science: "For my money, CCTV News English, a channel offered by China’s major state television broadcaster, is more fair and balanced than Fox News."

I put it to you. Can you think of any major news channel less fair and balanced than Fox News?

It's a non-starter for a comparison, unless he's trying to make the (mostly valid) point that American news is a complete joke.

Not making minimum wage in the US? Come make less in China!

Valid suggestion, but I don't think a move makes up for the perceived inadequacies in the States. Bugs, after all, are to be fixed, not circumvented.

excellent, i went east back in 2006 (japan, then china), it has been one of the best decisions of my life, living in shanghai now. i work in software development and the market and talent is red hot!

i disagree with the author in regards to the food scandals, this is a really crappy part of society here and i can't think of any scandal against citizens worse in modern day history.

And teaching English is not a dead end job?

Chinese people often refer to those like the author as "Losers Back Home." It is exceedingly common to run into Westerners who couldn't hack it in the West that think they are minor gods in Asia because of their native English speaking ability and sudden attractiveness to large throngs of females.

The success

Well I suppose thats one way to lower our unemployment rate here in the US

This may actually be one of the worst times to move to China if you're looking for a fresh start. They've been on a lending binge that's created a massive fixed asset bubble (mainly real estate), and it looks like the correction has recently begun. It's a lot like what happened in the U.S. and Dubai, although on a much larger scale and without the fancy derivatives (at least not yet).

Local governments have actually been forcing developers to borrow more money and buy land from them because they depend on those sales to meet their financial obligations. Real estate agents are offering luxury cars and bars of gold when you purchase an apartment, not to mention buy one get one free deals (the gold and luxury cars allow them to mask declines in the prices of apartments because list prices are still high).

I would stay far, far away... at least for the next 6-12 months so we can see how hard the landing will be. A lot of wealth is potentially going up in smoke and that could wreak havoc on their domestic demand, which is what they were planning to rely on in order to continue their rapid GDP growth (which we now know has been largely artificial).

I am glad Jonathan enjoys seeing and living in another place and it has always been a dream of mine to live/study/work in Asia but one question: is it not a HUGE trade-off to move to a place where the ONLY thing you can actually do is teach English and English culture? Because for all the other jobs, they will rather take a local and for any leading positions they will definitely not take you and unless you actually have money to invest, they could not care less about you.

Considering how I am European, it would also mean a HUGE trade-off in social security and insurance, health care and other things.