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Comment by LAC-Tech | Hacker News Reader

Americans are in so much denial about how rich their country is.

I'm in small town New Zealand, the kind of place certain kinds of Americans fantasize about immigrating to, especially when there's a republican president. Seeing people walk around barefoot while shopping is common. The majority of people burn firewood and/or coal to keep warm in the winter. And I'd say 95% of people have never lived in a temperature controlled house with a thermostat. Everything costs more money - electronics, fuel, food, accommodation - and wages are universally lower.

And this in one of the most developed parts of the planet. Think about how the US must compare to middle and low income countries. You'd be mind blown.

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You're right that the US is a fabulously wealthy country. Still, this might be a misguided comparison: the least developed region of NZ still has a higher HDI than two US states[1][2], without considering territories.

If you decided to wander around West Virginia (as I have), you'd see plenty of people burning coal and/or firewood for heat in winter (and WV winters are much harsher than NZ ones, from what I know about NZ). You'll also see extreme indigence of a sort that's otherwise almost completely invisible in the US.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_New_Zealand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

> Household Disposable Income per capita (including social transfers in kind)

1 United States 62,300 19 New Zealand 32,600 (2019)

Roughly 50%. I can't find similar data for the bad pockets of America.

The closest available metric is probably the BEA's PCPI[1], which is $42,315 for WV. So about 30% more, but I think a more fair metric would probably adjust for differences in social entitlements and welfare.

(Per capita for both also doesn't tell us much about distributions, or even sheer numbers: the two states that have lower HDIs than the least developed region of NZ have nearly as many people as all of NZ.)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_adjuste...

It's at least better to take the median: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes.

The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad.

Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods.

It's really hard to directly compare "wealth" between countries though, as many aspects of the system are often different; healthcare and general social security are the obvious things to point out there.

> The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad.

> Being a small isolated country probably plays part in the high cost of living; not so easy to import (or export) physical goods.

It's got nothing to do with the cost of goods or labour. NZ house prices are basically all zoning, the underlying cost of building a house is nothing compared to the value of the land while there's empty fields surrounding it that you can't even park a caravan on.

> The state of housing in NZ is indeed abysmal; I don't know why it's so bad.

There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island. Then you have the just get on with it throw it together attitude that used to dominate the rural areas, so you're starting from a really low point.

Starting from that low point it seems that its been hard to raise the bar. The cost of materials must play a part there. There's also been ongoing and continual issues with the companies that actually do the building and/or manufacture the materials being both intertwined and in monopoly positions.

I just had my house extended. Any new windows had to be double glazed, which is only a recent change. In many European countries its now triple. The new parts of my house are considerably warmer, and the original build was only 15 years old!

> The barefoot thing is just cultural, not because people can't afford shoes.

Yeah, I have a hard time persuading my kids to wear shoes. He could be describing my town and its not a poor area at all.

> There are plenty of factors. Most of the country has reasonably temperate weather all year round, especially on the more populous north island.

I've been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily. Only lived in South Island though, where the average is colder than Western Europe (but the housing much worse). North Island is indeed warmer.

Maybe (part of) the problem is just that "one size fits all" set of laws doesn't really suffice if there are fairly significant differences in e.g. climate within a country.

In Auckland I run home from work barefoot most days. And I work for Google.

Why?

Chased by pukekos

I learned to run fairly late in life barefoot on a beach. I like it and it works for me and I can't be bothered changing it.

Walking around barefoot is just a New Zealand culture thing. I make a decent software engineer salary and own shoes and I still walk around barefoot in public a lot because I like it more and it's socially acceptable. Someone got kicked out of a mall for being barefoot a few years ago and it was BIG NEWS https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/108772902/barefoot-woman-or...

95% of people in small rural NZ towns might heat their homes with wood fires, but that's not the norm in most parts of the country - heat pumps are very common (and required by new rental standards: https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/about-tenancy-services/news/heal...).

I'm not saying you're being intentionally dishonest, but if you've only ever lived in a small rural town here your perspective of the country is probably a bit warped. (And I imagine small rural towns in America are probably not actually much different).

I've been kicked out of a mall for not wearing shoes. I guess I should have kicked up a fuss.

Have higher standards.

I live in small town NZ as well. And I've also lived in CA and travelled quite a bit of the states, and lived in a couple of places in Europe.

NZ is kind of expensive and cheap at the same time. It's hard to describe exactly. When we lived in CA we had more money coming in, but much more going out.

For example, schools. NZ and the US both have free schooling. But to get the nice relaxed school that we liked we paid a lot more in the US. NZ has free healthcare. People complain about it a lot, but it's been good to me with various ailments, and easier to access than the US where we had good health insurance. Although the dentistry was better.

Or like dining out. Cheap place in the US is cheaper than a cheap place in NZ. But eating out at a nicer place is cheaper by a lot in NZ. It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance.

When it comes down to it, we loved our time in the USA, but we love NZ more and felt like life was better on about half the income.

I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave

> It's like there's a higher starting point but lower variance.

I remember a friend referred to this along the lines of there not being a medium-grade products in the US. There are cheap and crappy things, & good and expensive things. After living in USA for a while now, I think I agree.

I also realise I know you, we've chatted online before wave

Functional Programming Auckland? Have we met?

No but it must have been another chat group. JsNz or devnz.. Haven't met in person. I've got you as a 1st on linked in and I don't tend to connect unless I have spoken with.

Oh yeah hey Jeremy! Yeah devnz was not my cup of tea lol, I think I only lasted a few weeks. Good to see you around.

While I don't disagree with your general point, central heating/cooling is more about climate than wealth. New Zealand is pretty temperate.

Also, don't people walk around barefoot because they prefer to and it is accepted?

The south of New Zealand is colder than Western Europe, and the difference in housing quality is huge (poor heating, no isolation beyond the paint on the wall).

I've definitely been cold more in NZ than anywhere else, and I don't get cold all that easily.

Winter in southern NZ is comparable to winter in Paris for nighttime temperatures and warmer for daytime temperatures[1].

New Zealand as a whole has warmer winters than the French Riviera[2].

[1] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-ile-...

[2] https://www.worlddata.info/climate-comparison.php?r1=fr-cote...

Your link shows that Southland is significantly colder than France for much of the year. No, the winters don't get freezing cold; it's not Iceland. But it never gets very hot either. Overall, it's colder than Western Europe.

Comparing "New Zealand as a whole" doesn't make any sense; the differences in the country are too large. It's like drawing conclusions about the climate of one state based on the United States as a whole (and even within some states there can be pretty large differences).

That sounds like parts of Spain. I lived in the south of Spain for a winter as I wanted to escape true winter. I live in Lithuania, and winter to us means -25c. My thought process was 'Spain is warm'.

While I was there I think the coldest it got outside was 3c one night, in the day it was above 15c every day and almost all days were sunny. The thing is though the apartment had no insulation and the windows didn't close properly (I could put my finger through the gap). It wasn't that it was a run down apartment, the rest of it was really nice (amazing marble courtyard) - this is just how housing is there.

As such inside - with a electric heater on all the time we were home - it barely reached 18c. It was also very humid as it was by the sea, so the whole time we were so cold. Compare this to where we live in Lithuania, where we don't even turn the heating on until it reaches freezing outside. Winters in Spain are not warm.

I get that NZ is fairly temperate. Still, would you feel comfortable inside on a winters morning with your thermostat set to 40F?

That was my life for a while. The bedroom was warmer (space heater still worked despite gaps in the floor boards & single glazed windows). I'd get up out of bed, put on a few layers of clothing, then walk out into the cold living room to start a wood fire. Completely normal thing to do here for all but the wealthiest people.

I do know what you mean. I grew up in northern Canada where seeing -40 was an annual occurrence. But when I've traveled to warmer places I've often found that I can be colder indoors than I ever would be at home.

When it's the difference between life and death then buildings have central heating. But if it's a matter of comfort, central heating seems to be relatively rare. Even in the wealthiest countries.

Countries by median income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

One advantage the US has is being the world's reserve currency. It tends to give the USD a lot of strength/more purchasing power in other countries.

How does being the reserve currency drive local wages higher?

It doesn't drive wages higher, but it improves buying power which is an indirect raise

Then why are countries who aren't the reserve currency also have a more valuable currency? In some cases more valuable than the USD?

Whether the currency is <1 or >1 relative to the USD is not that important... it's largely a function of the money supply. 1 Euro is worth more than 1 USD, but goods in Europe may still cost more in USD terms than equivalent goods in the US. Or salaries could be lower (which is true as of today)

But that doesn't follow.

1. US has reserve currency status

2. That makes the purchasing power of the USD stronger (because USD > other currency)

3. Citizens benefit from that

Ok, but other currencies have even stronger purchasing power than the USD.

To put it simply: In an alternate world where USD was not the reserve currency, PPP of US based wages would be lower, all else equal.

The actual nominal conversion rate of the currency is pretty meaningless. The fact that Yen is 100 to 1ish to the dollar is also not very meaningful. They're all just nominal values. Only the exchange rate relative to fundamentals matters. USD gets stronger exchange rates relative to the fundamentals of the currency (because many foreign countries and citizens also hold USD, not just locals). Which is mostly untrue for other currencies.

PPP adjusted salaries are lower everywhere else in the world, partially, but not wholly for this reason.

You haven't actually proven that US' higher PPP is solely due to its reserve currency status.

Other countries who are not reserve currencies have higher purchasing power than USD. So if the US wasn't the reserve currency, there is no reason it couldn't do the same.

You're making a claim that you haven't backed up.

I never said "solely".

Fact: The USD has large foreign demand which does not exist for other currencies.

Fact: If more currency is demanded, it strengthens the currency in a relative sense.

Fact: Therefore the USD is stronger than it would be otherwise, considering only local demand.

Your whole counterargument seems to be based on a misunderstanding of real vs nominal. To say 1 Euro > 1 USD means people in Euro earning countries have higher purchasing power is simply wrong. All currency values are nominal.

Fact: If USD money supply doubled overnight and all holders got 2x the amount and wages/prices adjusted automatically, the Euro would appreciate 2x against the dollar.

Fact: That does not mean Euro earning citizens have higher purchasing power. It's an entirely nominal change. 1 hour of labor in USD terms earns the same in purchasing power, regardless of the face value of currency. Same concept as a stock split

Fact: If Euro became the reserve currency tomorrow, Euro-holders would have more purchasing power due to foreign demand making each unit of currency more valuable in a relative sense than it was previously.

Fact: If USD lost reserve currency status, it would weaken relative to other currencies.

None of these are disputed, but you can believe whatever you want.

But you still haven’t answered the question - if other countries have as strong (or stronger) currency than the US, then clearly the US could also have a strong currency without being the global reserve?

If the value of USD is higher relative to an alternative currency, then you can earn USD in the US and visit a foreign country, convert USD to local currency, and achieve higher purchasing power relative to local wages there.

Or simply buy foreign produced goods cheaper (e.g. Chinese produced goods on Amazon). e.g. Exchange rate induced deflation

It attracts outside investment since being the reserve currency is at the very least the bedrock of stability

well, switch it around, and I'm not just playing with words, there's cause and effect:

The bedrock of stability (plus large size, i.e. Switzerland or Norway are not going to be it) is the reserve currency.

The median income in tech (most people reading this site) is at least 4x that median, which is even more impactful.

The median income in tech is $200,000?

I was thinking $40k x 4 which is $160k.

I just did a quick search and found several reputable sites saying the average FAANG salary is $230 (which is 5.75x).

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the mean software engineering salary was $136,230 in 2022. So you're right thats only 3.5x.

Notice thats the mean. I suspect the median is actually slightly higher than the mean. So i'm guesstimating here. But I stand by my rough estimate.

Why would you suspect the median is higher than the mean?

Almost all statistics related to wealth and income I have seen indicate power law distributions, which would mean median is lower than mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_curve

This is so far from true it's hard to work out if it is supposed to be trolling or just ignorant.

The median salary of FAANG programmers in the Bay Area might be 4x that median. But I assure you that "most people reading this site" are not "FAANG programmers in the Bay Area" even if at times it might seem like they are.

The US number is also artificially inflated by their unusual healthcare system - in most developed countries healthcare is paid for from taxes or mandatory insurance (which is deducted from that measure), whereas in the US it's considered to be paid from disposable income.

Nah FSA to pay copays is tax free as are standard premiums. So you can pay your copays tax free the problem is you have to get your utilization correct since it is use it or lose it.

They're tax free but they're still considered part of your disposable income since you can choose not to pay them.

Urban poverty is something else entirely, man. You dont have the option of burning firewood or coal to keep warm in the winter. Or somewhere to burn it. You don't have the option to go barefoot, because your feet will be destroyed by broken glass, needles, and razorblades.

But it's okay. America is rich, and im sure the silly poor americans are just complaining for no reason.

It essentially boils down to: would you want to be near the bottom in a rich country or near the top in a poor country?

People hate being poor relative to their neighbors even if in real terms they are better off than people near but not at the top in poor places.

Also, people don't realize that Mexicans are richer then Ukrainians. The Ukraine is poor and but for few urban areas, so is much of Russia.

Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand. Chicken breast is about NZD$16-17/kg, so minimum wage workers in the US need to work about an hour and a half to afford it. This is compared to minimum wage workers in NZ who only need to work about 45 minutes to afford the same.

This is not taking into account things like healthcare, crime and similar.

First result from Walmart (US) for chicken breast - about 10 NZD/Kg. [0]

First result from Countdown (NZ) - 15 NZD/Kg [1]

[0] https://www.walmart.com/ip/Freshness-Guaranteed-Boneless-Chi...

[1] https://www.countdown.co.nz/shop/productdetails?stockcode=73...

I just took a quick look at the site for the grocery store near me in big-city-California-USA: I can get 3-and-a-bit pounds of non-frozen chicken breast for $9.50 right now (2.99/lb). Often frozen is a bit cheaper. Looks like this is equivalent to 4.66nzd/0.45kg or $10.35NZD/kg, so if that "NZD$16-17/kg" is a NZ price, it's over 50% higher than that.

CA minimum wage is $15.50/hr, so that would get me almost 2.36kg of chicken breast an hour.

NZ minimum wage appears to be 21.2NZD/hr, which would get me 2kg of chicken at US prices; and just 1.3ish at that 16-17 price point.

EDIT: Of course, not all of the US has CA's minimum wage. But the wealthy parts of the US are certainly quite wealthy globally, with still-low-globally prices for many things.

Hmm boneless, skinless chicken breast is US$9/kg at Costco San Francisco. At SF’s minimum wage, that’s 31 minutes

>Groceries are about as expensive, if not more, than new Zealand.

If this were actually true as opposed to nonsense, there wouldn't have been the nationwide excitement over the recent opening of New Zealand's first Costco (complete with a visit from PM Ardern), and endless discussion in the press over how it would hopefully lower grocery prices.

The price of chicken is probably not a good comparison tool at the moment, given that there is a massive global bird flu pandemic going on. Is it impacting New Zealand to the extent that it is impacting North America and Europe?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/12/pandemic...

Yeah but are they happier? None of that shit means anything if you are in debt stressed working 2 jobs and can’t even get childcare or healthcare for you kid

Plenty of poor towns here in America. I encourage you to watch the Frontline special growing up poor in America

https://www.pbs.org/video/growing-up-poor-in-america-z4g8k5/

Think of all those millions walking thousands of miles just for a chance to get into the US.

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