Microsoft will stop selling Windows 10 licenses in a few days | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft will stop selling Windows 10 licenses in a few days

pcworld.com

53 pointstaubek70 comments

Perfect, I'll feel even less bad about pirating it. (not that Microsoft would allow me to give them money for LTSB anyway)

I'm not particularly worried that I'll have a reason I want to use Windows 11 soon. It really feels like the user hostility has gotten to a completely untenable level. Luckily it seems like Proton/Linux Nvidia drivers will be good enough to never use Windows again by the time I have any reason to move off of W10.

Once steam OS is available to the general public for all kinds of computers this is definitely the last nail in the coffin.

I use Windows solely for the reason of gaming and otherwise have switched to linux and never looked back

I remember that feeling from when Steam Machines were supposed to take over the world about a decade ago, and here we are.

A key difference, aside from the general Linux experience back then being even worse than it is today, is that they only supported native Linux games. Valve quickly discovered why people generally didn't port to Linux even when Steam provided them a stable targetable runtime.

Now they've come back with a new plan: screw it, we'll just run Windows games on the damn things instead. Combined with FlatPaks and an immutable base system (with KDE instead of user-hostile GNOME), I think they actually have a pretty good shot at replacing Ubuntu as the new de-facto Linux Desktop distro. From there, Year of the Linux Desktop, for gamers at least, looks a bit more plausible.

It's hard to feel secure in the long-term success of Proton, as impressive as it is. As long as the plan is heavily reliant on playing new Windows games, it seems like Microsoft might be able to make some anti-competitive play which some makes it much more expensive, difficult, or slow to maintain or advance Proton. (If targeting Proton becomes a priority for many developers, so that they are hesitant to do Windows development without considering Proton compatibility, I think that risk is mitigated significantly.)

I agree that the other things work in favor of Linux gaming as well. An immutable base system with strong separation from containerized apps seems like an approach more in line with Windows and Mac users' expectations for how app installation works, and clears important footguns away on behalf of power users. KDE also seems like a good base for Windows power users, who value customization but also want a sensible GUI for making such tweaks.

Shouldn't we also note that the Steam Deck seems to be a genuine success where Steam Machines never were? What's the install base of the Steam Deck, and what can we hope for it to grow to? If the Steam Deck can build respectable market share as a 'console', that could be a really, really crucial foothold for making sure that Linux/Proton is worth targeting for publishers.

Once steam deck acquires enough popularity the game developers themselves will make sure their next game works on it

By letting Valve do the work ensuring Windows games run smoothly on Proton.

At first, right now, yes. But if the Deck continues to be popular then developers themselves will ensure that their games work with proton the same way they make sure their games work on the Switch.

Yeah, there's a chance this all ends like OS/2, but considering how hard Microsoft is working to tank Windows among power users (and who else even still uses a Desktop?) at this point, I'm betting it doesn't.

The plan to follow the OS/2 footsteps, turned out great.

Steam Machines were not popular but they paved the way (they never stopped working on Proton) for Steam Deck which is very very popular.

Now making a game work on proton doesn't mean it works on Linux, means it works on a new popular portable console.

This thing runs God of War [1] at the same performance than a regular PS4 but on Linux over Proton in a handheld, it's incredible.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xvZkRSpQoE

FWIW I've been using Steam+Proton on Arch for a month now, and it's like fucking magic. Other than the peculiarity of having two AMD graphics drivers to pick from, I'd say it's 90% there. No crashes, glitches, etc after picking the better of the two drivers for a particular game.

Yeah, the Switch never happened.

With Valve's take on being one of the few companies to stay in Russia, with details on how to get around sanctions stickied in their forums by official forum mods for quite a while after the sanctions were put in place (and with no response from steam when I submitted complaints that they were allowing sanctions evasion thinly veiled as simply (official steam moderators) posting this information) I don't see Valve as being some sort of virtuitious savior.

The gaming industry was not sanctioned and there are no export controls on video games. What do you want them to do? If by "sanctions evasions" you mean telling people to buy virtual cards to pay for games or gift cards I will tell you none of that is illegal. How exactly would banning Russians from Steam save anyone anyways? Savvy Russians have been using VPNs for everything for a long time now, it would make no difference.

A lot of people seem to support collective punishment of the entire Russian population. It’s somewhat alarming to me.

I will never miss an opportunity to admit that plenty of thoughtful people in Russia don't support this war and feel awful about that. But there is a chance to get a fine or to be commited in crime for that kind of speech. Gamers use vpn, trukish accounts and prepaid cards. Also a lot of steam deck salers on local cragelist. Peace

Anti-cheat is still a big problem. Most of the games I play with my friends won't run on my steam deck specifically because of that. Really hoping the industry comes together and solves linux support for it; I'm not sure it's possible to just work around with a compatibility layer

That's hilarious, I switched to linux for gaming and use windows because customers need their products written for windows machines! Even things like League through wine play so much more smoothly without input latency when run atop a linux kernel.

I have tried switching to Linux from Windows a couple times now. I enjoy it, but every single time I experience crashes. Twice it's been corruption of key boot files. I wish I had a couple billion to donate to / create some key Linux orgs to make the year of Desktop Linux a reality.

In other news, Windows never crashes or fails to boot

I've also had multiple stability issues, especially across dist upgrades. It seems like such a great option until you try to use it for work, and then it quickly degenerates at a speed worse than windows.

Anecdote. Mine is, I don't have any issues doing work on Linux, and it is _much faster_ than Windows, from basic tasks like opening an app, to RUNNING GAMES.

Windows is user hostile and God awful slow in comparison.

Anecdote.

Every time linux desktop comes up, there are tons of people having issues. Meanwhile, I can point to material improvements Microsoft has made to the windows core that mitigate many of these complaints - improvements that landed in both 10 and 11, and that simply don't exist on the Linux desktop.

Simply put, the Linux desktop is hardly anywhere close to prime time. Efforts from Valve and Canonical have gone a long way in the last few years to catch up, but it's hardly a "done deal".

What's missing? I can think of a few regressions added in Windows 11. But I can't think of any major features KDE/Gnome on a modern distro lack that Windows/MacOS have.

HDR support is prettu important for gaming. Win11 has Auto HDR to convert SDR content too.

- Image based installs (this is actually pretty huge, it means you can recover an existing system very easily, and nothing like it exists in the linux world)

- HDR support. Full stop.

- Multi monitor / multi resolution support (yes, they support it on paper but in reality it's lacking)

- Multi vendor GPU support - my igr is amd, my external is nvidia

- Hibernate mode (very rough support on linux, still even today!)

- I have never gotten video to play without tearing, over 15 solid years of using linux on the desktop as a side box on bare metal. Please someone tell me what I'm doing wrong.

- Thunderbolt networking

- I recently installed ubuntu lts and then ran updates, and then the machine refused to boot. That was very cool!

and as far as niceties go, Win11 adds excellent tiling support, a better control panel, better network drive integration, and a more clear filesystem exposure for devices - network or otherwise.

I have a very long list of additional deficiencies.

And yes, I am very disappointed with Win11. I'm still on 10 for my main machine. I keep giving desktop linux a shot and running into massive, deal-breaking issues. Frankly, I'm sick of microsoft's incompetence but their technical foundation is still, even now, strong than desktop linux's.

I would like nothing more than to ditch microsoft, but every time I try, it's nothing but dead ends. I use ubuntu via VM frequently, including hosting my dev env - I wish it was the host.

FWIW my second machine is a ubuntu lts desktop machine, I have only had a few dist upgrades work flawlessly in my 15 years of running it. I gave up a long time ago and blow it away when LTS support ends.

Some of these are Nvidia issues. HDR and TB networking are valid, I forgot about HDR since my monitor is so bad at it that it was a must turn off feature that actively ruins the experience rather than enhance it.

For image based installs, it is possible to customize distro installers. Cubic is a tool to do so for Ubuntu/Debian based distros for example. And with NixOS or Guix you can do some pretty crazy stuff which don't have any compliment in the Windows world.

> Some of these are Nvidia issues

As unfair as it seems, they are desktop linux issues, not Nvidia issues. If your OS does not work with the most popular discrete graphics solution, it's a "you" problem. Like I said, completely unfair :)

Speaking of which, the windows graphics subsystem is light years ahead of anything on the linux desktop. It can handle a driver AND card kernel crash, restart the card, and your system keeps running. It's actually very impressive.

> Cubic

That is installing with a disk image, which is a different thing than an image based install (Windows DISM).

> NixOS or Guix

This is much closer to the reproducible install mechanism windows has, although still has some key deficiencies (and key benefits that windows doesn't have!). I think this is the future, but IME is not completely ready for casual desktop use.

Modern MacOS has zero support for Nvidia even in their $6000+ desktop with PCIe slots but nobody says shit like "it's not ready for prime time". I don't think it's fair to penalize Linux for Nvidia being shoddy at drivers and not playing ball.

If you say you support PCs, and your support for the most common configurations is lacking, then it's your problem.

If I owe the bank $1000, it's my problem. If I owe the bank $1,000,000,000, then it's their problem.

Apple is a terrible example to use. Apple does not play that game, it's very clear going in that you're buying more of an appliance. Also, that $6000+ desktop is literally the last of their lineup on Intel and is clearly on its way out - it will probably be replaced by something without PCIe. Not saying if that's good or bad, just that it's Apple. Personally, I think it's quite bad, though...

> Image based installs

That would be a great benefit, agreed. But not a current utter show stopper.

> I have never gotten video to play without tearing, over 15 solid years of using linux on the desktop as a side box on bare metal. Please someone tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Selection of a properly supported GPU and their capable drivers? I play various video formats be it browser based (Youtube, Netflix, Jellyfin, etc) or VLC/file based without any video tearing. Although, I don't ever try to play fullscreen so maybe that has something to do with it.

I gave you a whole list of issues, and you address two of them - one of which is actually a huge boon to system stability and update stability. The other, you say "never tried it".

Because I don't speak on things I don't know or have any experience with. Easy concept.

"Simply put, the Linux desktop is hardly anywhere close to prime time."

Yeah I am going to have to disagree with you there. Been running PopOS for a year and its pretty close to were it needs to be.

Plug an XPS 15 with 4k display into an external 120hz 1440p monitor and watch the sparks fly. Among many other issues.

Absolutely not anywhere close where it needs to be.

I hear you in your belief. Everyone experiences different levels of stability depending on the many circumstances

Using the most lauded distro, plugging a very common model of laptop into an external display (very common activity), and having it crash is inexcusable. That is not an OS that can be used for day-to-day work.

I hear YOU in YOUR belief that desktop linux is stable and ready for primetime. Maybe some day that'll be true. I think it'll probably be sooner than I think, but it's not there yet.

Desktop linux still has tons of rough edges, weird glitches, and is still quite buggy the second you take it out of the rather narrowly defined "best hardware" list. It's come a long way, but even the teams building these distros have their own "100 papercuts" lists, and the stuff on there is pretty low hanging fruit, even today.

> it quickly degenerates at a speed worse than windows.

I think you underestimate how fast a Windows install gets slow and bloated.

On the GNU/Linux side I have this experience when I need to use Nvidia stuff.

Nvidia open source community modules sucks because they're on-purpose limited by Nvidia firmware.

Nvidia proprietary modules take forever to compile and install, and will break your system every time updates are force-interrupted by any reason.

> I think you underestimate how fast a Windows install gets slow and bloated.

I love my Linux, but I just can't agree with this argument against modern Windows. The Windows installation on my desktop at work dates back to the original release of Windows 10, back in 2015 or so. It's had the guts upgraded twice (motherboard, CPU, ram). It still runs great.

>I think you underestimate how fast a Windows install gets slow and bloated.

In my many years of experience, I have found desktop linux to be even worse. Frankly, I'm annoyed this is a problem on any OS. App containers are the way forward, and snapd is terrible (firefox updates, for example, are awful)

Im using PopOS(LTS) for work and its been working for me for a year, a few issues that I had to deal with but nothing crazy.

I am using windows now because I have to for work. It crashes and freezes way mpre often than my linux setup. Not everyone has the same experience.

I agree that Windows and mac is a bit more polished, but they both also come with crapware and spyware so I can take the crashes..

You're absolutely right, I think I've just had bad luck or have been inadvertently screwing up one thing or another. I'll likely give it a shot once again before the forced Windows 11 upgrade comes my way, the telemetry and bloat repulses me, too.

A long time Windows user who switched to Linux (PopOS) last year[1]. I have had an occasional issue with the boot env, where i had to reinstall it. Other than that and printer drive env not always maintaining settings its been a pretty good experience for me. After Windows 11 came out, I decided enough is enough, its funny now watching Microsoft dig it's own grave.

[1]: https://www.scottrlarson.com/publications/publication-transi...

> Twice it's been corruption of key boot files.

Can you detail a bit more?, what's the hardware, what happened (what was corrupted?), where were you running Linux from?, and how long ago?

Only times I've actually encountered issues recently were with old microSD cards on raspberry pi and nvidia drivers causing a mess on update sometimes.

This goes back a little, but IIRC one was GRUB somehow got messed up (yes, I know, technically not Linux... but it's part of the experience). I managed to fix that one by reinstalling GRUB which, to be completely honest, was kinda fun. That was my old Lenovo laptop. The next time is my new PC, with an AMD 5600x CPU, I have not the faintest idea what happened, Grub would boot into an error I couldn't find any clues on. I ended up just reformating the disk and turning it into extra space for Steam games.

One issue usually happens when installing windows after linux. Windows just wipes grub...

Might happen if you upgrade windows too.

The other issue with grub error, kind of weird, maybe adding hard drives might cause problems, or some issue during upgrade.

I am pretty sure this is a non-issue, Unless Microsoft have changed how their licencing works:

Licences can be used to run any older versions of the same edition. So Windows 10 Pro licences are valid for 8, 7, Vista, XP, etc.

No way you can get XP to accept a W11 license key though

It's been so long since i did any of that. I believe it did work though, or if not then you could get MS to issue you a real one.

They might not do it now.

I do remember being surpised how far back Windows keys would work.

That's true for devices which come pre-loaded with an OEM version of a Pro edition of Windows, allowing downgrades to the equivalent editions in older Windows versions that have not yet reached their end of support dates (so right now Windows 8 or newer), and also true with different guidelines for licenses covered under the Volume Licensing or Software Assurance programs. However Microsoft doesn't always make it easy to legally obtain the media for versions of Windows older than the one before the current version, which is another prerequisite for legally using older versions unless you already have the necessary media.

Downgrade rights would not allow use of Windows 10 for anyone who buys a Windows 11 upgrade license from Windows 8.1 or older, a Windows 11 full packaged product retail license (as one must do to legally run Windows on a Mac), or a devices which comes OEM-preloaded with a Windows Home edition.

Other situations are less clear to me.

There is no way Microsoft is not actively trying to push people away from Windows

*to Windows 11

This behaviour has existed before Windows 11 too

Really glad my windows computer is pretty much just for games these days, so I don't have to care too much about a GUI downgrade

I'm in the minority I think. I love Windows 11. It's the biggest refresh since Vista without the stability issues.

What's Win11 do that Win10 doesn't, other than Thread Director (Which enables proper usage Intel's E-cores)?

I'm looking for things beyond simple UI/UX changes, mainly because I think Win11's UI is horrid.

WSL2 GUI apps out of the box? Although they had a Windows 10 build in the insiders ring with that so very Halo 2 for Vista vibes.

I think for me most of it is the UI upgrade, because it's really taking 20 years of UI/UX and updating/unifying it.

An "update" does not necessarily imply an upgrade.

As mentioned above, I think the Win11 UI is horrid. It's trying to be the MacOS UI which is hands down the worst UI I've ever used.

Modern UI trends are all about flatness (which reduces discoverability), minimalism (hiding functionality), and dark patterns.

Windows 7 with the Classic theme and task bar grouping disabled was peak UI. It's been downhill ever since.

How is it trying to be macOS? Because they centered the start bar?

and removed the ability to make task bar items show window text.

and removed the ability to disable collapsing.

If I have 3 Firefox windows open, then on the task bar, I should have 3 Firefox buttons, each showing the title of the web page they're on, so it should only take a single quick glance and a single click to switch windows.

The current behavior did not begin with Win11, but Win11 is the first Windows to force it. Even Win10 lets you configure it to behave more like Win7 and before.

You can revert back with a registry change. Not ideal I guess, but it's still doable.

My company just upgraded my laptop to Windows 11. I like it for the most part. I needed to disable MSN for my mental health. The upgrade was fast and seamless for me. I like most of the UI tweaks and I am glad the start menu can be adjusted back to the left. No issues with stability.

Windows 7 still the best windows

Hands down!

At one point, I’d like to install it on an old refurbished SFF - I still have a couple of licenses, but no longer have an install disc, though.

Is it possible to get an install ISO through official channels? (Call me paranoid, but I don’t trust pirated ISO’s.)

MSDN or whatever it's called now still offers those ISOs yes. But of course you can always validate the ISO against a legit copy.

This website is a helpful tool to easily download ISOs from Microsoft: https://tb.rg-adguard.net/public.php

You can verify when you click "download" that it's a link from a Microsoft domain.

Anyone have any tips for building a windows box that can only talk to steam? I want a copy of the OS that never phones home to Microsoft, never updates, and doesn't even access the network other than to download from steam or stream to my local network.

Maybe I can put it on an isolated vlan and only allow outbound connections to steam?

Basically yeah, look on reddit for tutorials on how to strip the cruft out of windows, and start with W10 LTSB rather than retail. Handling the comms blockade is best done on the edge and not the OS itself imo. Disabling windows update permanently is so beautiful, I love having a computer I can expect to work exactly the same way tomorrow as it did today. It's an incredible QoL improvement.

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