When was the term ‘directory’ replaced by ‘folder’? | Hacker News Reader

When was the term ‘directory’ replaced by ‘folder’?

retrocomputing.stackexchange.com

31 pointssusam47 comments

I used the term "directories" until about 5 years ago.

As I tried to explain things to people, they didn't know what the hell I was talking about when I said "directories." So I had to check that shit and start using "folders" so that I could communicate with people.

Haha, same here. I also found that some younger developers use GUI for navigating and manipulating the filesystem, instead of terminal. Made me a bit shocked first, just like the word “folder”, which I considered a “layman” word used by non-techies.

I use the file system, but rarely use the mouse on it.

I wouldn't mind a combination between a file explorer and a terminal window.

In the 90s, as I remember it, Macs didn’t have anything called a directory, while Windows and Unix-based OSes had only directories (at least among geeks). I still use “directory” today if it’s in a Windows, Linux, or general context; “folder” in a Mac context. But I guess Windows switched to “folder” too at some point. But also, Macs are now BSD-based and I’m a programmer, so it’s directories when talking about command-line stuff.

Windows got “folder” by way of Macs, I’m pretty sure,

I was surprised to learn that the most direct lineage of the “folder” metaphor in Windows 95 (the first Windows which featured it in its modern form) was likely via NeXTStep.

This is derived from Steve Sinofsky’s excellent Substack[1], which walks carefully through the history of Windows 4.0/Chicago/95 and unambiguously describes Gates’ competitive target as NeXT & Jobs.

Once I read this, it was hard to un-see how obviously Win95 was inspired by NeXTStep in both design and aesthetics.

[1] https://hardcoresoftware.learningbyshipping.com/

Everything ultimately came from Xerox starting with icons in 1975 and the entire Xerox Star system with folders in 1981.

[0] https://www.howtogeek.com/769913/the-computer-folder-is-40-h...

Yep, after Jobs visited PARC, there was no stopping him. Next thing you know, the C-64 had GEOS.

But if we're giving credit, we can't leave out Douglas Engelbart's "The Mother of all Demos"[0] in 1968.

> The live demonstration featured the introduction of a complete computer hardware and software system called the oN-Line System or, more commonly, NLS. The 90-minute presentation demonstrated for the first time many of the fundamental elements of modern personal computing: windows, hypertext, graphics, efficient navigation and command input, video conferencing, the computer mouse, word processing, dynamic file linking, revision control, and a collaborative real-time editor. Engelbart's presentation was the first to publicly demonstrate all of these elements in a single system. The demonstration was highly influential and spawned similar projects at Xerox PARC in the early 1970s.

But I don't think it had manila folders, or called them as such.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

Yeah I always felt the window decorations (close and minimize buttons) in Windows 95 clearly “took a hint” from NeXTSTEP.

Yes, it came in with Macs. I was mildly annoyed at the time.

The manila folder icon was in both Windows 3.0 (and earlier) as well as OS/2 1.x so routinely called folders then too. Dir, folder, directory were all acceptable though different people had their preferences. I think I usually said dir being so used to seeing <DIR>.

Windows got “windows” by way of Macs, so that’s not very surprising.

Both got "windows" by way of Xerox.

I'm not sure how much Windows was directly influenced by the work of Xerox and not by Mac OS (also considering MS was basically on board on the Macintosh from day one).

Let's say Apple paved the way for Microsoft in terms of economic viability of a GUI ;)

Similar to the question when did 'app' replace 'program'.

Maybe we are appers and not programmers.

app apes, not code monkeys

I didn't think it had. App is more specific and almost always used only when talking about programs intended for mobile devices. I haven't come across people using it to describe desktop software (these days). I like app better and I'm on board with a switch. Back in the warez days programs were called appz for applications so there's history there.

Apps is commonly used to describe desktop software nowadays. From Windows (https://apps.microsoft.com/store/apps, https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-...) to Linux (https://apps.gnome.org/, https://apps.kde.org/, https://flatpak.org/).

Well, guess I'm out of touch. On the bright side I can start using "apps" now.

You were correct for about 2-4 years of the smart phone revolution though. I think we all became lazy and and replaced "application/program/software" with app since everyone knew/used app to describe everything on their phone.

I began following that trend when I realized most desktop apps are just blown up smartphone apps and former shells of more useful older programs.

app which is short for application is actually an old term from at least the 1970's. I believe the usage may come from a computer program that is applied to specific problem. You get the term computer application and program application with the latter eventually evolving to just application.

For example in Byte January 1977 "What if you just wrote a nifty new program that runs in 16 K but your system only has 8 K to spare? Do you buy another 8 K before you run this? Ofcourse not. You logically break the program into smaller pieces, which are stored in a direct access device. When your application comes to need a program segment which is not in main memory, it goes out to the direct access storage device and loads the needed segment. Since the maximum delay of an inexpensive floppy unit is about 0.75 second and it has a data rate of 250 K bytes per second, there will be little pause before the program is again executing. Further, most of the delay is from arm positioning motions, so if all the data and program segments are on adjacent tracks the delay will typically average less than 1/30 of a second. Even ifa person is waiting for the results, a large amount of such swapping can go on before the wait gets excessive."

https://i.imgur.com/wfrkITJ.png

They are not synonyms. Kernels, firmware, drivers, boot loaders are all programs, but they aren’t apps.

I think both terms are inferior to what Amiga used:

“Drawers”.

Truly the biggest loss when Commodore went bankrupt. (My first GUI growing up)

To be fair, having the concept of a desktop matches quite well with the concept of a folder.

On the Amiga, you didn't have a desktop per se, but a Workbench. A Workbench has drawers.

The analogy breaks down somewhat, since I can't pull down my real-world workbench to reveal a red and white bouncing ball. Unfortunately.

Oh yeah the furniture theme was consistent :)

But the other way that metaphor broke was when nesting drawers inside other drawers. With folders that makes sense; at least a little bit. I know that I have actually nested file folders before in real life but I’ve never installed a drawer inside my drawer.

But that’s OK, my love for Amiga is unconditional.

I disagree. You can put folders inside folders, but putting a drawer inside another drawer?

Google image "drawer in a drawer" will give you some examples. You won't find deep recursive hierarchies, though.

I has an Amiga as a kid and I remember in an IT class (where everything was Windows), I started talking about putting files in drawers and the teacher looked me like I had had two heads.

For whatever reason (Win95? MacOS?) I still to refer to them as Folders in a GUI but a Directory in a terminal.

It's likely because of the fact that folders are used as icons for directories.

And you use 'dir' in the command line.

You’d use ‘ls’ on Unix-derived systems. But still ‘cd’ for ‘change directory’.

Interesting answers in the article with some nuance and history but for most people it was when Windows 95 came out - DOS and Windows 3.1’s winfile[1] utility referred to them as directories. When Windows 95 came out it became folders.

[1]https://github.com/microsoft/winfile

Is what's worse is SharePoint has also introduced the term "library", which is really just a root level directory.

I think both are still commonly used today.

It was also called folder in Atari TOS, which was clearly inspired by Mac OS as well.

That was Digital Research’s GEM, which Atari had licenced for the GUI of TOS (they threw it together quite quickly). There was a whole thing about GEM and inspiration from Xerox PARC and Apple; that’s largely the reason why the Atari version was the only version that really made it to any kind of brief success.

I vaguely remember seeing GEM even used on DOS PCs back in the early 90s.

It was the only way to use a couple of very early DTP packages (Timeworks being the one I remember).

Of course, by then it was after GEM 2 and had been neutered by the lawsuit which forced it to abandon the desktop metaphor for 2 permanently tiled windows

It is both on the Atari ST

The user interface shows folders but the programming manuals refer to directories.

In the File menu in TOS 2.06 it lists both Create Folder... and Close Directory

What would be the visual representation of a 'directory'?

For me, it's 'directory' for cli, and 'folder' for gui.

Except for 'Directory Opus', it still makes sense to say 'directory'.

> What would be the visual representation of a 'directory'?

A list of names of things, with associated information, either text or pictorial.

Which is exactly what both GUIs and CLIs tend to give you for “folders”.

R still uses it. E.g., getwd() gets current working directory.

oh this must be from the xerox GUI the mac got circa 1983?

my memory is Windows 95 made them folders and they were directories before. At least in MS land.

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