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Comment by mg | Hacker News Reader

I am a huge fan of standalone mp3-players.

So much so, that at some point I made a comparison site for mp3-players. But nobody cared. I made comparison sites for smartphones, laptops and monitors which became quite popular. But for mp3-players, it seemed like I am the only person on planet earth who uses them.

Personally, I still use a Sony Walkman NWZ-E585. For me, that is the best mp3 player ever made. It has a nice form factor, feels very good haptically, the navigation interface is ok, the sound quality is great, the noise cancelling too, and you can access the storage without having to install propriatery software on your computer.

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The best MP3 (and FLAC) player ever made is the Sansa Clip+ with Rockbox firmware.

$50 when new. Size of a matchbox -- not the car, the small thing that restaurants and bars used to hand out as advertising. MicroSD slot for storage. 20+ hours of playtime, recharged via USB. Appears as a USB Mass Storage device, too. 3.5mm headphone jack. Small 2-part monochrome OLED display. Physical buttons: D-pad, OK, Menu, power, and volume up and down. After a day you don't need to look at it to pause/play, skip a track, change the volume or turn it on and off.

With Rockbox installed (ten minute process), you can play FLAC, use a parametric equalizer, customize the display, change playback speed for audiobooks, and generally do a few dozen things more than the factory firmware.

Rockbox lets you do the same on a large number of devices, but the Clip+ is the best.

Blast from the past, loved playing around with rockbox back in the days of the early iPods!

Glad to hear its still somewhat alive!

It is a nice device, but I would be missing noise-cancelling when using the Sansa Clip+.

Noise-cancelling is a must-have for me. It significantly increases quality of life to have it with you, wherever you go.

And I like the high-quality look and haptic feeling of the NWZ-E585. It looks like a classy audio device. And it feels really good in your hand.

Out of curiosity how does noise canceling works when on the device?

I assumed it was only possible when on the headset as it needed to be measured and cancelled based on the direction of the sound.

I'm failing how a device in your pocket can cancel any ambiant noise

If I’m reading the specs right it looks like their headphones are required. I’m guessing mic’s are on each side and offloaded to the player? Either way, I wouldn’t want to be forced to use their headphones.

No reason you can't have noise cancelling with wired earphones to the Sansa, Bose QC20s etc.

I assume also there are jack-to-bluetooth adapters for wireless.

QC20 are not an option for me because of the extra device that is built into the cord close to where you plug it into the mp3-player. It makes handling of the whole system cumbersome.

I guess the noise-cancelling has to be built into the mp3-player to avoid this. I have not seen elegant in-ear headphones with built-in noise-cancelling yet.

No need to have noise cancelling as part of the mp3 player.

As long as you don't mind over the ear headphones Bose QC35 are wireless but also come with a optional 2.5mm to 3.5mm jack cord.

I imgaine that there's lots of alternatives on the market too.

What’s the DAC/amp like on it?

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html

Very good

I had a Sansa clip of some type and it lasted about as long as the cheap $5 mp3 player I bought next. These days I find it more convenient to use my phone. You can play mp3s just fine on a phone.

Phones are awful if you are doing exercises though.

Depends. I use my phone to control music when I'm in the gym but when I'm out running or cycling then listening to music is generally a bad idea, IMO, as you lose spatial awareness.

I suppose that's more or less important whether you're running in a busy city or out in the countryside though.

Either way, recent high end smart/sport watches usually have some sort of music playback support for folks who want to exercise with music but don't want to lug around a phone.

You can get good deals on Garmin watches that play music at their factory outlet store. I compress music with AAC Pro on my mac and then upload it, I really can't complain about the sound quality given that the gym or outdoors is usually noisy.

Garmin really undersells their music functionality on their fitness watches. I wasn't expecting the depth of music features on their newer stuff, like being able to automatically sync Spotify playlists to your watch for offline play, or being able to use the watch as a remote for your Bluetooth-connected phone.

As you said, losing spatial awareness is only an issue if you are forced to share space with cars where drivers often don't pay attention and try to murder you. If you are on paths/trails or in the middle of nowhere then its not a big deal. You don't hear the mountain lion stalking you regardless if you are listening to music.

Awareness is important without cars too. Be it cyclist to cyclist or runner to cyclist.

You may not hear mountain lion, but you may hear stray dog.

That latter part is important. I live out in the country, and I've had more than a couple of encounters with aggressive dogs. Occasionally other wildlife, but as I like to posit: The forest reveals its secrets if you listen closely enough.

It’s not just cars, helps to just hear what else is happening, if other runners are behind you, cyclists, etc.

The display on my exercise bike has broken, so it has been useful to have a stopwatch as well as a music player on my phone, I don't have a good way to carry it for any other kind of exercise.

How are phones awful? In the gym I just stick my phone in the corner and the Bluetooth radio has enough range to reach my headphones. For running I just put my phone in my pocket.

I have a Garmin smart watch that supports audio playback but it's a hassle to use because I have to load or sync recordings in advance. Streaming audio on my phone is much more convenient. Plus I have my phone with me anyway in case I want to take a picture due Strava or something.

You obviously don’t care if your phone gets stolen or your Bluetooth headphones get ruined by sweat or have a plate dropped on them.

I will personally attest to the Sansa clip + $10 earbuds being the best workout audio combo available.

I am fortunate enough to be a member at a gym where theft isn't a problem. Good Bluetooth headphones aren't ruined by sweat (and I sweat a lot). If you drop a plate on your ear then you have bigger problems than ruining your headphones.

Fair enough! I’ve been a member at some more… high risk gyms, and I’m unusually hard on earbuds and like. Cheap and replaceable may not be optimal for everyone’s use case.

Sure, but there are use cases where you can't play MP3s on a phone, and this is where MP3 players fill the need.

I have a friend who depends on her Sansa Clip+. Sure, she has a phone, but the clip is tiny, the battery lasts forever and it has a headphone jack.

Shame it was discontinued around 2013

I owned one (with Rockbox), unfortunately it broke after 2 years and then they were discontinued.

Absolutely the best, I use my phone these days as I have it on me but replaced the Sansa with another as I couldn't find anything as good even after it was discontinued.

I agree. There was something magical about these especially how good the sound quality is for its size and portability. I use mine at the gym and when running since you can barely feel it. It has a nice selection of apps too.

I've collected 3 over the years in case any of them die off. While the battery life is still good I should probably get around to researching replacement batteries/cells while I still can.

Can't you just put any 3.7v lipo battery with a protection board that'll fit?

The only failure I've had with one so far was the front buttons; and I bought a broken one for parts years ago that had the exact same issue...

I just ordered 2 batteries for each of my Sansa Clips. I'll have to unsolder/solder the wires to the mainboard to replace, but that's a small price to pay for keeping such a great player alive longer.

I second that. I'm a commercial painter and more then once I've had my sansa mp3 player fall into a paint bucket. Fish it out, clean it up and the damn things just kept on working. Instant brand loyalty after that. Shame they stopped making them.

Looks like Best Buy and other retailers still sell a line of Sandisk “Clips” ??

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sandisk-clip-jam-8gb-mp3-player...

Sadly, not the same. Rockbox makes a real functional and usability difference.

Cool. It's been so long since they disappeared in my neck of the woods that I have stopped looking. I'll check this out. Thanks.

From the Rockbox devices page:

> Sansa Clip Sport / Clip Jam / Clip Sport Go / Clip Sport Plus

> These are based on an Actions Semiconductor ATJ2127 chips, with under 100KB of available memory and all audio decoding happening inside dedicated hardware. A rockbox port to these (and other ATJ2127) targets will not happen, as it would require an immence undertaking and due to resource limitations, the end result would lack most of the features that rockbox users have come to expect.

Same here. Still use my Sansa every single day!

Yeah, the Clip+ with Rockbox was just incredible. Got me through a lot of workdays in the corporate "no software allowed on your computer" days.

I was using mine in the very early days of Android existing. Some people had them, but I didn't yet. I got my first Android phone, moved my music over, and was ... massively disappointed. My favorite phone incident was sitting on some flight, trying to listen to music, and my phone wouldn't play it through the headphones, speakers only, annoying everyone nearby. I didn't listen to music on that flight and promptly switched back to a device that did not have a physical speaker.

Over time, phones rebuilt trust and I got a lot of use out of that, until Google Play Music got shut down and deleted all my music (no problem, I have it all locally). Now I have no idea what people do and simply go without. I guess people don't have music libraries any more and just listen to the radio for $10/month? No thanks. (I use foobar2000 on my desktop, and don't listen to music away from my home anymore. Thanks technological progress?)

Sorry, but the best MP3 (and FLAC) player ever made is the Sansa Fuse with Rockbox firmware.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195360366923?hash=item2d7c62a14b:g:...

But it's so big!

Carrying all that weight helps keep me fit.

I still have my original Clip+. The OLED display is showing it's age with dimmed pixels but it is still a great -stealth- recording device. It is also still my go to music player for long flights.

The latest Rockbox (3.15, I think) supports Opus on Sansa Clips, and I've loaded mine with transcoded Opus files. (I keep FLAC files in my archive.) I know, Opus is not FLAC, but I'm likely to be listening in noisy environments where it's impossible to tell the difference, and the vastly longer playtime is a good trade.

You're not alone and neither is the Walkman. Enough people use these things to support a small market that, having not been killed by mobile phones by 2023, isn't going to be. I have an Astell & Kern one.

People may not have been interested in the comparison site because there just aren't that many devices to choose from and the choice comes down more to the sound than features that can be enumerated on a comparison list. Monitors are a mess, with each manufacturer making a zillion variants with cryptic model numbers differing in quantifiable ways. I've actively sought out monitor comparisons, but one for DAPs never occurred to me.

I feel like I'm opening myself up to some abuse by posting this, but I still use my original brown Zune every day. I bought one as soon as they became available and I've always loved it. I've swapped out the original hard drive twice (once early on for a 100 GB HDD until it died, and then for a 128 GB SSD), and I've replaced the battery twice as well. Sometimes I wonder if I just hold onto it out of nostalgia, but I hope it will last a long time to come!

I got bit by its leapyear bug while I was traveling, and had to go the whole day without being able to listen to my music :(

I heard nothing but good about the Zune when it was available. I'm kind of sad it was taken off the market before I had a chance to try it.

I like to have a separate device for playing audio as well, especially one which is sturdy and waterproof and small enough to fit in one of those small pockets on my sleeve when I'm out in the fields or woods swinging a tractor or an axe.

I also like for that device to be able to receive and make phone calls...

...so I just use an old Android device, to be more specific my old Motorola Defy from 2011. It runs Android (Cyanogenmod, the predecessor to LineageOS) 4.4, does the Wifi thing but also the phone call thing, runs DSub connected to my own Airsonic server. It also takes photos, runs Telegram and when in dire need even a browser although it takes patience to wait for it chewing through a Javascript-burdened "modern" site. I have a 32GB microSD card in the thing which is enough given its connectivity options. The battery, also from 2011, lasts for 2 to 3 days of intense use.

Small Android devices running Google-free AOSP-derived distributions are a good match for the role of "standalone" music players with the added benefit of allowing connectivity. Total costs for the latter are around €10/year with occasional use (Sweden, "pay as you go" SIM), total cost for the device is zero since I've used it for 12 years.

Play music and make phone calls sounds like an SIM enabled Apple Watch.

No, a SIM enabled Apple watch sounds like an expensive solution to an already solved problem in this case. Apart from being virtually free the Android-based solution also stands out for being open versus the closed nature of the Apple watch. I use (other instances of) the same device as remote-controlled media player (a Defy running MPD connected to a car stereo in a large-ish wooden rectangular box with beefy speakers, a battery and several power hookups and charging ports (including 20W of solar panels to keep the thing going when there's light to be had)) or a trailer camera (a screen-less Defy in a custom wood+aluminium enclosure mounted in the front of my wife's horse trailer, the thing creates its own "cloud" through its Wifi adapter so she can see her nags on the road, it powers up and down based on the trailer hookup being powered with the battery as backup) and other similar contraptions.

I guess if it’s waterproof and small then it works too. Though older Apple watches are actually extremely cheap.

They're still running "iOS" (OK, trimmed down to "watchOS") and with that are far less amenable to running the type of software I want. It might work for those who are in the clutches of the Apple world but for those who live in freedom it is of not much use.

I guess I was basing my recommendation on a restricted device that was waterproof, plays music, and could make phone calls. If you expand your criteria back to general mobile computing device that can run many apps then sure you’ll just have to use Android or full iOS.

Standalone devices like HiBy R2 / Shanling M0 / Fiio M5 make a lot of sense, because they allow to bridge almost anything to almost anything else audio-wise. airplay/usb/bluetooth/dlna in — airplay/usb/bluetooth/dlna out. Too bad they are marketed as a "hifi media player"

Airpods/Earbuds (I use the galaxy buids pro) have filled that need for me. My uses are a little less extreme, granted, but I leave my phone in my bag and just use the buds. In practice the battery life is more than good enough for me to use every day, and it means I have less devices to manage.

Shout-out for the Motorola Defy - I used to have one and it was a great form factor, almost an ideal size. Sadly mine bricked for reasons unknown.

I used to use my NWZ-A17 every day until the pandemic started. It was small, light, has physical buttons I could press when it was in my parka's inner pocket, I didn't have to recharge it every night.

Now I work from home and I have migrated to my smartphone. I use it infrequently enough that I am not annoyed by what the streaming service tries to get me to listen to.

And owning a dumb mp3 player comes with its own drawbacks. If artist A has released 20 albums, artist B only five and I have both discographies on my player, that doesn't mean I want to listen to artist A four times as often when I ask for a shuffled playlist.

Back when I owned a 256MB mp3 player (and felt like a king among people with floppies) I would hand-pick a playlist that would fit. With dozens of gigabytes of storage I have no desire to do that and I want the player to come up with a good playlist for me.

Is that player comparison site still around, or do you have a recommendation for someone who has long had the thought of getting a dedicated music playing device?

The article listed those as $800, which is ridiculous and there's no way I'm paying that much, but if I can find something at a much more reasonable price (preferably a physical headphone jack) I'd be happy as a clam.

Did I not read far enough into the article or something? It says $360 in Japan and $430 in the EU to me.

They discuss a higher end model at the end which costs more than $800.

I was skimming specifically looking for price and must have missed the earlier, cheaper, listings. And when they said that $818 price tag was "relatively cheap" I took that to mean that's the entry-level fee and decided to nope on out.

I wouldn't even spend that much on my phone (spent less than half of that) so there's no way I'm spending that on another device, lol.

If you think that is bad, check out the Walkman NW-WM1ZM2 (who at Sony thinks that these names are a good idea?) for a cool $3500

"There's another new Sony Walkman, the NW-ZX700. It's 104,500 yen ($818) in Japan, and while that sounds like a lot for a portable music player, it's actually a relative bargain compare..."

Ok, at that price point (or even a quarter of that) it ceases to be a music player to become a luxury good to be shown by paid influencers on social media. Nothing to see here, move along...

I used to have one that cost me around £200 and was alright but sounded pretty anaemic. I replaced it with one that cost around £600 and is way better. I love it.

Comments of the form "price X is unreasonable because I'd never pay it" are mildly annoying. You're an individual, not a market, and as such don't get to choose what a "reasonable" price is. DAPs (digital audio players) are available at a wide range of prices. The top result for "MP3 player" on Amazon UK right now is £23.99. Choose a price point you're happy with and you'll find something. I love mine at the price point I went for.

(I've also had one for around £50, bought a couple of ~£20 ones for my small children and owned a couple of different DAC dongles for my phone. Unsurprisingly, the sound quality is very highly correlated with the price, up to the level I've tried. I expect it levels out not far above, though, and if you decide to pay thousands for a DAP they'll make it out of gold-plated copper because there's nothing else left to use the money on. [1])

[1] https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/walkman/nw-wm1z

> Comments of the form "price X is unreasonable because I'd never pay it" are mildly annoying. You're an individual, not a market, and as such don't get to choose what a "reasonable" price is.

When my gf wanted an adjustable standing desk the going rate was roughly $600 for anything that had everything she wanted so I built it myself for maybe $200 and the thing is still being used regularly something like 8 years later.

When I want a physical copy of an older PS2 game and they're all $100+, I pirate it.

If _YOU_ want to outsource personal responsibility for your money, that's on you, don't lecture me because I choose not to.

I can conclude that millions for a painting is unreasonable despite many people doing it because they're involved in money laundering just as well as anyone else.

I seem to have got under your skin. It wasn't my intention and I apologise if I caused offense, but I don't retract what I said. You've described ways you've obtained things for less than market price in exchange for extra effort or legal risk, not reasons the market price should be anything other than what it is, which is determined by what people will pay, collectively.

two comments made by others in this conversation:

> Ok, at that price point (or even a quarter of that) it ceases to be a music player to become a luxury good to be shown by paid influencers on social media. Nothing to see here, move along...

> If you think that is bad, check out the Walkman NW-WM1ZM2 (who at Sony thinks that these names are a good idea?) for a cool $3500

Your response is what everyone will sound like once our robot overlords finally take over. It certainly didn't come from an understanding of the human condition.

Further examples of the same attitude. Such comments are common, which is why I find them "mildly annoying".

I suggest you find a healthier pastime than getting upset about what other people are buying. In the meantime, I'll spend my money however I please. Maybe I'll buy a gold plated Walkman. They look shiny.

It's common for people to point out that something is overpriced?!? Why that can't be, after all, "the market" sez...

And if I tell you that your obvious poking has angered me, will you feel sufficiently positive to walk away from this conversation?

I guess we'll see.

It's plain I angered you with my first reply, but it wasn't intended and I apologised. You replied rudely, so yes I had a bit of a poke, which I'm not particularly proud of. I don't try to wind people up and it doesn't give me pleasure to do so. It just seems especially easy in your case.

It's possible to disagree with people on the internet without getting emotional about it. It's just a conversation about Walkmans. (Walkmen?)

^this is what it looks like when people have called out dang and are trying to make themselves look good. Or at least I hope so otherwise the lack of self-awareness in your posts is getting even worse.

It would be better to read my posts as amused rather than angry.

Your response is what everyone will sound like once our robot overlords finally take over.

Your needless rudeness belies a deeper personal problem.

Just build your own mp3 player/DAP then mate. You seem so proud of yourself, I'm sure you'd love it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What you can do is look at the players supported on https://www.rockbox.org/ (open-source alternative firmware for mp3 players) and check which ones are currently available for purchase somewhere. From the top of my head I know at least Surfans F20 and Xduoo X3II shouldn't be hard to come by.

interesting, thank you, I'll have to check that out.

It warms my heart to see Rockbox still alive and kicking. Most of my experience with it took place around 2005-2007 (wow, we're getting old I guess!). Great project.

I couldn't second that more. Rockbox is a wonderful 100% FOSS operating system for music players, and they're working hard to port it to new devices, almost always with zero help from manufacturers. HNers, please consider donating to the project, and/or if you have a old player collecting dust somewhere, also consider donating it to them so they'll have more hardware available for testing; when working with undocumented platforms the risk of bricking them is high, so it would help a lot.

> The article listed those as $800,

Oh it's middle of the line then? Because there are far more expensive Walkman models: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B354TW13/ and https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B45DJ5RQ/

> which is ridiculous and there's no way I'm paying that much

You forgot "for me" after "ridiculous."

I turned myself into an audiophile without even realizing it, but once you hear the difference, you can't unhear it. I have rediscovered some of my favorite tracks. So if your hearing is good (use an app to check if you can still hear the buzz sound, if not check your response curve) and you enjoy music, why not?

My regular audio setup (walkman, headphones, cable) cost more than the (very good, top of the line) OLED laptop I'm using. Add all the little extras I use time-to-time, like shoulder headphones for use in the morning, or the sunglasses with integrated bluetooth I use when taking a walk, and it's an obscene amount of money.

But music is what moves my soul. You may spend top dollar for your car and consider it a "reasonable" expense because it brings you such happiness everyday? I consider a top-of-the-line NZW Walkman "reasonable" for the same reasons.

>> you can access the storage without having to install propriatery software on your computer.

I was also a fan when they almost all played from a file system, but even 10+ years ago it was harder and harder to find something that didn't require a store or some terrible music management application. Streaming continues to kill this approach as well. My kids don't know what an mp3 is.

I can say the same of my NWZ-S730. More than 10 years of usage and it still works great. I wish I could find replacement noise cancelling headphones for it, they were amazing for public transport. It will probably last 10 more years, maybe even more.

> So much so, that at some point I made a comparison site for mp3-players. But nobody cared.

Not surprised in the least. People voted long ago, and continue to do so, that a single device that handles communication, entertainment, games, news, photography, etc. is superior to standalone devices you have carry around.

Good enough is good enough for the majority of the market. They don't want to hear Vienna Philharmonic's third violinist breathe, they want to listen to autotuned pop music on a pair of $20 headphones and get on with their day.

I subscribe to Tidal, which has master quality recordings. One’s headphone choice is orthogonal to the music player you use, so if you can pick a very high quality one for a standalone MP3 player you can use that same one with your phone.

The "problem" I have is that I bought a Cowon iAudio 7 over a decade ago and the thing still has amazing battery life and sounds fine. By the time I need to replace it, they'll all be gone.

Why not buy some more now then?

How long does a battery last when unused?

There is a good chance you can just find similar size enough battery to fit, althought might require soldering

I already have a spare but its capacity is much lower. Will probably attempt a battery transplant when the first one gives out.

What was the name of the site, if you don't mind me asking?

mp3 players are pretty niche. For normal day to day stuff I already have my phone which has all features any mp3 player has and I want to carry it for other reasons as well.

There needs to be a good reason to carry extra device. I could see carrying something that has much better sound quality with amp that can drive some more hobbyist headphones, but I don't know if such devices are made - at least all the mp3 players I've seen are made to be as cheap as possible.

I agree, it is pretty niche and I belong to that niche. As a music nerd myself, it was dedicated storage and just being used to having music offline without the streaming services. The iPod nano was so tiny, that it felt like nothing is in my jacket's pocket. I do have some music on my phone, but it's photos that are mostly taking up its storage. I literally have gigabytes worth of music and also audiobooks that are several hundreds of megabytes each. Though I don't have data to support it, I'm also trying to conserve my phone's battery.

If you listen to music all day, saving phone battery life is a pretty good reason. Plus a non-Android MP3 player can get 40-100 hours on a charge.

> all the mp3 players I've seen are made to be as cheap as possible.

There are plenty of high-end players which prioritise sound quality and provide a better output than phones. The NW-ZX700 in the featured article looks to be one of these. FiiO is another well-known higher-end brand: https://www.fiio.com/m17

I wouldn't call FiiO high-end, they have a pretty wide range in most products (including DAPs) that goes from budget to relatively high-end ($1800). Astell & Kern start about one step down from FiiO's high-end, but can take you much higher (their ULTIMA SP3000 is ~$4300).

> There needs to be a good reason to carry extra device

Funny enough, for me that extra device is the phone: I see no reason to carry a "phone" for normal day-to-day stuff as my walkman has all the features I normally need (email, PDF viewer).

I want to carry it for other reasons as well: due to its smaller screen size, the walkman limits the use of addictive social media.

Main reason to use a standalone mp3 device is: doing excersie (sports, running, etc.). I cannot play, let's say basketball with my phone hanging around. Nor running, nor almost anything that implies excersising.

Still use an iPod 5th gen daily. I would happily use Rockbox but it's lacking any Podcast support which I need, but you're definitely not alone!

I've not tried it myself, but is this of any use?

https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DataBase#Examples

All of the database examples talk about podcasts. Especially the last one that uses play counts to split podcasts into old and new "folders" seems useful.

(Opinions my own)

I wish I would have some use for an mp3 player but I don't.

I have my Android phone with me all the time. Sometimes even a second one so my mp3s are on there.

The only use I could see would be for a long bike tour where I want to save phone battery time but those are quite rare and the price they call there is ridiculous for that.

When I'm travelling and need to be 100% sure my phone is working, i always bring an old android as mp3 player.

I use it to listen to audiobooks.

I use a powerbank since I need the phone too.

And yes, I use it mainly to listen to audiobooks too.

Years ago, I would have agreed with you, for the longest time I used an iAudio 5XL with Rockbox. It was the best portable music player.

But now... I can have a cell phone with 512GB of storage and run Foobar2000 [1][2]. Nothing else can compete.

[1][Android] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.foobar2000...

[2] [iOS] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/foobar2000/id1072807669

What’s your comparison site for monitors (assuming it’s still up-to-date)? Interested in something that comes close to Retina in PPI, but doesn’t carry Apple’s hefty price tag.

Edit: ah, well that didn’t take much looking. It’s https://www.productchart.com/ for anyone else interested. Looks really nice, thanks!

What do you mean by "the noise cancelling too"? I thought that was a feature of headphones and not MP3 players`.

The wired ones use the DAP for the processing. Special (usually only for the DAP in question) headphones/earbuds with microphonesnare needed. They are usually included though, so it's hardly an issue.

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