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Comment by booleandilemma | Hacker News Reader

Great. And they still can't catch that guy who robbed the bodega on the corner, and people casually ride the subway without paying every day.

NYC's latest shooter turned himself in, the cops couldn't even handle that: https://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-police-search-gunman-brooklyn-...

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Public transit should be free

In many cities I think that this is a good idea, but in New York I worry about how effective this would be because of the outsized number of non-resident, non-tax-paying riders (tourists) who use the system.

Most of the tourists will be paying a nightly hotel tax (which could be adjusted).

I'm completely fine subsidizing tourists' use of the system. Every subway ride is one less rideshare ride; less rideshare rides mean more space for buses, bikes, and people walking. Well worth the tax paid!

That farebox revenue needs to cover operational costs for public infrastructure seems just crazy to me. The fire department doesn't need to make a profit on putting out fires. Public parks don't need to make money by charging an admission fee. It's just something we pay for for public good. I'm pretty sure that public transportation fares are something nobody has ever really thought about; the networks used to be run by private companies, and when they were taken over by the government (which put them out of businesses by building highways) nobody ever thought to get rid of the fares. It's certainly time to think about it.

Tourist tax. Like when you check-in to your hotel they ask you to pay 15 euro.

This already exists, and there are various excise taxes the city levels on things tourists are likely to consume too.

Interestingly there has been a parallel conversation with EVs since money for road maintenance typically comes through gasoline taxes. The idea being that the more you use the more you pay (more driving == more gas, heavier vehicles == lower mpg, etc).

Wouldn't you want tourists to travel as efficiently as possible so they leave lots of money at various places (which the city participates in via sales tax)

I'd want locals to travel as efficiently as possible too- to get to their jobs.

> non-tax-paying riders (tourists)

They're literally carrying money into the local economy, yet one should worry about them getting a free ride on the subway along with everyone else?

A taxpayer may need months to generate the same amount of wealth a tourist leaves behind in a single week.

Making public transport free/cheap for only tourists would make more sense. In fact some places do just that (usually bundled with discounts/tickets to popular attractions).

Tourists pay sales tax, Uber tax hotel tax etc

Why and how?

Edit:

1.What will be the second and higher order consequences? See the student loan crisis and ballooning costs of higher Ed due to admin bloat.

2. Is it fair in a society with more free basics to require more responsibility from the public?

3. It is easy and popular to mandate feel good stuff than reason about that mandate.

The benefits of subsidizing public transit are obvious: less congested roads, more economic activity, fewer cars polluting the city.

Free public transit is just the same idea taken to the extreme.

> 2. Is it fair in a society with more free basics to require more responsibility from the public?

I was curious what you were thinking with your second question above, in the context of free public transit. I wondered if the need for responsibility would be a wash when comparing transit vs driving, affecting both?

For driving you need to pay taxes, pollution tests, fees, buy insurance, vision tests, and take a written test and a driving test. And continuously update your license and registration. All this is before you can drive. And there are road rules too.

If we have free transport, can we at least require minimum rules for safety?

E.g., no open drug use and harassing others.

Rely on holy spirits for safety is not an answer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/04/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

It's nice sentiment, but studies have found that making transit free just tends to cause existing transit users to ride transit more frequently for shorter distances (instead of walking) but doesn't tend to encourage new users of transit.

What time period did they do the studies on? Suppose I drive a car because it has some advantages over paid public transit. Now when they make public transit free, I still have my car. I'm not likely to switch within a short time period. When it comes to moving home, getting a new job or a new car then I may become a new user of transit.

You raise a valid point; this lack of long term effects is also my problem with most basic income studies. That said, if you're making a decision to sell your car and move to a place near a transit stop, I'd argue that the $2.50 or whatever a train/bus ticket costs isn't going to be a primary factor in your decision.

Consider Japan; everyone uses transit there, and train tickets are generally quite expensive. But, people pay for it because:

1) Almost all development is high density near transit stops

2) The trains are fast and frequent

If we want people to use transit, low fares are a definite nice to have, but the real key is we need to stop with horrible car-centric zoning policies and low-density construction.

It makes transit more accessible to people without money.

And it saves a good chunk of money on fare collection, processing, and enforcement.

Thankfully, since the beginning of the pandemic, most mass transit in the U.S. is de-facto payment-optional.

Studies paid for by who? The car lobby

…okay? That seems fine?

The problem then being that it becomes so over used and underfunded it collapses...

When free things are oversubscribed, either a queue or a scrum forms.

Which version of free are you talking about? Don't pay to maintain the equipment and enslave the workers, "point a bunch of guns at wealthy people and ask them to give us nice things?", ad-supported, donation-based (National public radio on wheels/rails)?

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