Sick of smelling her neighbor’s legal pot, this woman sued | Hacker News Reader

Sick of smelling her neighbor’s legal pot, this woman sued

washingtonpost.com

25 pointsmirthlessend66 comments

Great, great! Thanks for being the pioneer, Josefa.

I hope she wins. It's not just marijuana. Perfumes and other chemicals have increased dramatically over the last 10 - 15 years. It has driven some people to suicide: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivit...

And in the case of marijuana this is easy to solve by the person smoking, eating or growing the pot. Keep your windows closed, do everything inside, and use an odor and chemical eliminating air purifier. They cost anywhere from a few dollars for the ones you directly exhale cigarette smoke into, to $100 or so for console purifiers, to $400 to a couple thousand for the full home purifiers which use pounds of activated carbon, zeolite, and various other minerals to eliminate multiple chemicals and odors. Plus money on an ongoing basis to change out the filters, though some of the filters allow cheaper exchange when done by the user.

Yep, same. I was always mostly against legalization not because I think it's some evil drug, but because the smell is absolutely stomach turning to me. In a perfect world, it would be legal, people would be polite, etc. But our society is decidedly impolite. I have to avoid a lot of public parks in my city because they smell like a skunk orgy now.

Still, I'd rather it just be nuisance fines and such than sending people to prison for years.

I fully support the legalization of weed, but also heavy fines and penalties for people who cause a weed smell in public when they are told not to. It’s not hard to detect whose and where the smell is coming from, and moreover, it’s not hard to get all of the benefits and “high” of weed without creating the smell (e.g. edibles).

We let people drink and we let people drive, but no drinking and driving. Similarly people can use drugs like weed all they want because it’s their choice but when they make a bad smell and such it becomes other people’s problem. Get high but get high responsibly

> also heavy fines and penalties for people who cause a weed smell in public when they are told not to

Oooh! Can we do the same for other offensive smells too?

If it's a) a really bad smell and b) easy to contain.

We wouldn't just fine people for being sweaty or dirty. But if it someone's house smells like a manure factory or fish market so strongly that it affects the neighbors I think a warning and then fine is fair. Like how playing loud music is ok at a bar or during the daytime, but if it's 3am and your next-door neighbors are elderly you're just being obnoxious and need to wear headphones.

literally anything burning gas comes into question at that point

Also weird 'ethnic' smells. And homeless people, they frequently smell pretty offensively. Also, if you just went for a jog or something similar and worked up a bit of sweat, you might want to avoid stopping by the corner shop on your way home, you might get fined for being smelly.

Oh, and Steve. He wears this perfume that I find offensive. He should be fined for that too.

Many cities have wood burning bans.

That's not about the smell.

Smoking pot is by far the least expensive form. Inexpect wealthier people already use edibles.

> Yep, same. I was always mostly against legalization not because I think it's some evil drug, but because the smell is absolutely stomach turning to me.

I cannot fathom supporting sending thousands of people to jail every year because I find a smell icky.

That commenter literally said they wanted fines rather than prison time. Your comment is a strawman.

The poster proposed something nonsensical. If marijuana were illegal but the punishment were just fines, a person possessing it can be subjected to a search of their person, home or vehicle. It is a declaration that “I’m humane!! I just think the icky smell should give law enforcement the right to rifle through your belongings to establish how much to charge you for the icky smell.”

“I am against something being legal BUT I also support a fantasy set of consequences that do not align with reality” is a straw man.

Like lol “I think people with the icky smell forfeit their fourth amendment rights but I’m not bad!” is such a silly thing to say.

You do know that we've already been around this circle once with tobacco. Not to mention other "nuisances".

I agree, it’s silly. I personally hate, _HATE_ Acqua Di Gio but I cannot imagine involving the police in any capacity to deal with someone that wears it.

Fake cinnamon scent. Cinnamon candles, the damn pinecones coated with cinnamon. I can't stand it. When I worked at a home improvement store, I hurried through the Christmas area holding my breath to get out to where I needed to be: strapping Christmas trees to the tops of Mini Coopers. If, somehow, a neighbor managed to introduce that nastiness into my living area, I'd go have a talk with them. It would be a heartfelt talk about how I know it's pleasant for them, but it's basically torture for me. I've never been in a situation where an honest discussion of how I realize they enjoy it, but it bothers me to the point of insanity hasn't lead to them happily accommodating my sensitivity. There's godawful people out there for sure, but there's a lot more individuals that just never thought that it might be a problem who are happy to reduce the impact on a neighbor if it's a polite and heartfelt request. If they are just asswads, that's where property management comes in in an apartment or condo. If they're managing to pipe unpleasantness into a free-standing house, then it's time to look at your HVAC system. I've personally never experienced a neighbor's grilling, smoking, burning excrement within a house. The local cows and sewage issues, yes. The neighbors' smells, not once.

I AGREE! I find those cinnamon pinecones to be alarmingly bad, like bad to the extent that it makes me question the owner’s sanity. I think the appropriate response is to organize some sort of intervention with their close friends and family. XD

The poster is against legalization because he thinks the smell is icky.

Said poster is going to have to accept that it's legal and in 20 years no one is going to give a crap about their opinion.

It's just fresh and this is just a way for people to try and enforce their own morality around the use of it.

Escalating fines along with literature on how to remediate. Though for incorrigibles some jail time would be nice. Some people think they are exempt from the law (blowing smoke outside of windows in a complex, when they know the distancing laws).

I completely agree. If the wind is wrong we have to close up our home due to the amount of marijuana smoke that comes in from our neighbors who seem to always be smoking.

It’s a public nuisance, and I’m not biased against the substance in particular; I find BBQ smoke or cigarette smoke equally irritating.

The new "longer lasting" more intense scent laundry detergents are also a problem.

I guess I'm one of those people who likes the smell of my laundry (lavander generally). Is the smell dangerous somehow, or do you find them overwhelming? I know some people can have incredibly sensitive noses (even make careers of it) but I never realised they could be "smelling too much" so it overwhelms them

Thanks for caring enough to be open.

Depending on the intensity these perfumes can cause anything from allergic-type reactions to migraines. At the very least they can be annoying to people with sensitive noses. I'm just annoyed by these scents, though very rarely they can trigger or exacerbate a headache if I'm on the verge of a headache. But others are far more sensitive, or far more on edge (such as chronic migraine sufferers who have to take active measures to avoid triggering a migraine).

Some laundry detergents aren't nearly as bad as others. I don't know if yours is.

One VERY IMPORTANT thing to note is that constant exposure to particular scents (or scents in general) will desensitize your own nose to them. Others don't have to have a particularly sensitive nose to be aggravated by a particular perfume, they just have to not be constantly exposed to it.

Some tips if you're trying to be considerate: 1) Use only as much detergent as you need to. 2) Avoid scented dryer sheets (or avoid dryer sheets in general). 3) Avoid products that advertise "longer lasting scent". 4) Avoid any products advertised along the lines of "odor blast!".

Thank for writing such a thoughtful reply!

Now that you mentioned perfumes, when I enter a perfume shop I get a headache too. I've just not been in one for ages and forgot about the headaches!

I think my laundry doesn't smell too strong (I generally put one pod in), normally without fabric softener, just a water softener (eg Calgon tablets) and just hang dry them afterwards. So, hopefully it's not too strong

As for perfumes, I generally don't even own one, unless it was a present from someone.

Aside: it's fascinating smells can have such a strong impact on people

My neighbor’s dog literally makes me sick. I don’t sleep many nights due to allergies. I agree, nobody should have to suffer health consequences due to neighbors dishygenic lifestyle choices.

Move. It's not a lifestyle choice, and you don't have to live there.

You assume I’ve not actually thought of that? Rent control and life circumstances don't allow me to move. And yes, dogs are a luxury and definitely a life choice. I have no dog because I cannot afford to one. I love dogs as much as anyone. If I owned a home I would have one. But not in my bedroom.

My neighbor grills outdoors pretty often. I'm a vegetarian, and I don't really appreciate smelling the roasting flesh of dead animals. Perhaps this woman is onto something.

Right on. They can use an indoor grill. And vent it out through the piping on their roof.

A previous neighbors grill was located under their porch awning. We shared a wall and their porch awning vented directly into our microwave and range's rooftop vent. Whenever they grilled it flooded our unit. Dangerous pollution regardless of the smell. If we turned on the vent to prevent the intake it created negative pressure in our home and pulled their glade plugin scents through the wall.

And this is how you know this woman should lose.

You're complaining about the smell of grilling. The other poster is complaining because they're vegan and they don't like the smell of cooking meat?

At some point people are just going to complain because they don't want to be a decent neighbor and just deal with it.

The neighbor is firing up the grill because they enjoy grilling.

And people are playing bass thumping party music at midnight because they enjoy partying. Why the heck should that be unlawful but outdoor grilling shouldn't be?

Because presumably the grilling is not happening at midnight and even if it is occuring at odd hours, it's not interfering with a household's ability to sleep.

If the noise is bothering them they can just use earplugs.

...

Basically there are plenty of arguments to be made on why my fist swinging really isn't a problem for your nose.

Be considerate. If you can't be considerate in advance (because you don't realize it's a problem), then try to find a reasonable solution when a neighbor tells you it's a problem.

If a neighbor comes and tells me my grilling is a fire hazard, we'll talk about it.

If they tell me they don't like the smell, quite frankly I don't give a shit.

But here's the thing. I used to live next to a neighbor who would a few times a year be noisy past the point of reasonableness. I never once complained to them about it. Why?

It was birthday parties for their children, they were having fun in the backyard, yes, past dark as well.

At some point being reasonable doesn't mean zero tolerance. And sound is disruptive in a way that smells are not.

If this woman doesn't want to smell marijuana, she can close her windows and purchase a few air purifiers.

The question is where do you draw the line? Hypothetical: the smell of flowers makes me sick, it's possible to garden indoors. I want you to remove your outdoor garden and grow your flowers indoors only. Is that fair?

Earplugs are uncomfortable and interfere with hearing your alarm go off. It's not raw sewage. It's a grill. It's occuring during normal waking hours. There's an extent to which you have to deal with the fact that you're not the only person for 30 miles. I've got no sympathy.

The right to swing your fist/fish ends at my nose. Decent neighbors don't create nuisances.

The only interpretation of this post that isn't a clear strawman is that you're implying smells are akin to physical violence.

vegetarian, but thanks for playing.

turn the vent on and open a window on the opposite side, that will neutralize the negative pressure.

Our unit was too small. And with the shared wall smells and smoke would pump out the attic vent on the opposite side of the unit where the other window was. This was especially bad when they had parties at their place and the smoke from cigarettes and vapes literally surrounded our entire unit.

The previous tenants at the neighboring place had considerately placed their grill in the lawn area. And never had parties.

I feel like odours should be treated like noise. Faint odours or odours which occur infrequently should be permitable, but odour which disrupts the reasonable enjoyment of someone’s home should be suppressed.

Generally I have pretty low sympathy for marijuana smokers given that there are many other ways to consume marijuana which all are better for your health than smoking.

What is reasonable though? With sound, we can do things to quantify it, but how do you do that for odours? Do you define it as ppm? Ppm of what specifically? You don't really want to be opening the pandora's box of using human perception to define the limits because that is just fraught with potential for mistakes, selective enforcement and abuse.

In my locale the rule about noise is if you can hear it from the sidewalk in front of the property during night time it is too loud. A similar rule of thumb could be used for smells.

Rules of thumb are not the best of ideas when it comes to legalities. Your locale probably either has a specific limit defined (dB at X distance) or has never been challenged on its rule.

In my locale there is no set distance:

"point of reception" means: (a) a point in a lane or street, adjacent to but outside of the property occupied by the recipient of the noise or sound, that represents the shortest distance between that property and the source of the noise; or (b) where no lane, street, or other public property exists between the recipient and the source, any point outside the property line of the real property from which the noise or sound emanates; (c) in the case of noise emanating from inside Rogers Arena, a point as defined in sub paragraph (a) or (b) or a point immediately adjacent to and outside of any dwelling unit located within the site legally described as PID: 018-500-374, Lot 221, Plan LMP 12038; and (d) in any case at least 1.2 m above the surface of the ground

There are specific db limits however

Those are still well defined limits, which reasonably account for property size and shape. That is in line with the point I was trying to make -- there are unambiguous limits defined. Much harder to do that with smell.

It is up in the air if edibles are “healthier” than smoking. Definitely better for your lungs, but there are plenty of other reasons to prefer smoking/vaping over edibles.

It is better to not judge people on their drug use.

The current guidance by my national health provider (Canada) claims that smoking is worse for your health. It is pretty well established that inhaling any kind of smoke is bad for your teeth, mouth, throat, and lungs — marijuana included.

I can relate. My Oregon neighbor grew four plants for the fun of it. The constant smell of weed in my backyard was annoying. He died and I had a break for a while. But then a motel a block away was converted into a grow. After wondering why the area smelled so strongly of skunks (there were some skunks in the neighborhood), I finally realized the smell was coming from the grow.

sure, but you're not suing your neighbor over it or claiming you have some right to determine what they can and cannot due to do an annoying smell.

We all deal with things we don't necessarily enjoy.

Yes, we can. It's called zoning and code violations. Marijuana smell is annoying and when enough people get annoyed, there will be change.

Your comment also reminded me of a notice from the city director that daily fines would be issued for yard waste set within 10' of the curb for more than 7 days. Apparently it was against city code. Yard waste in my own yard! Now imagine day after day, marijuana smell wafting out of my yard into the surrounding yards. You bet that's gonna get locked down sometime.

I find the simultaneous growing support of pot amidst the ever popular dragonization of tobacco one of our cultures greatest mysteries.

The consumable side of the pot market is substantial and obliviates the inhalation risks associated with tobacco.

I have zero love for smoke filled rooms or using my lungs as a filter, but I see no issue with pot consumables in moderation.

This is surely never going to be used by people acting in bad faith.

Setting a precedent that you can sue someone to make someone seal up their house/apt (or stop all together if that’s not possible) for anything that makes a smell based on the their self-reported subjective experience is gonna be a goldmine for the very worst kinds of neighbors.

Even if you attach a reasonableness test it’ll just be a reflection of the norms of white people so BBQ will be fine and never reported but “whenever they cook it makes my apartment smell … ethnic” will. Because sure, you want to say that they should fuck off for being racist but if they genuinely can’t stand the smell they have as much standing as for pot. And since it’s self-reported you can’t tell the difference anyway.

I think they have the spirit of “don’t be a dick to your neighbors” right. But an execution like this is just going to be another burden on the already othered.

What isn't used by people acting in bad faith?

There are devices that regulatory agencies can use to quantitatively determine odor thresholds. And there are things people can do to remediate odors without sealing up their place or stopping altogether.

That just determines the strength of a smell not whether it’s bad or good which is the issue.

The problem is that the only people who will ever be affected by this law are people society already doesn’t exactly like, in this thread it’s “potheads.” Even if it only cost a $100 filter to fix it, that’s still a filter that equally smelly but socially acceptable white suburban Italian dad who always has a pot simmering has never even considered needing.

If you try to make it equal by banning all odors above a threshold you will still have the same problem because the complaints won’t be about Mary’s at home baking business who is very blatantly violating the law.

> "the complaints won’t be about Mary’s at home baking business"

We already have had lawsuits over commercial operations: https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/marijuana/appeals-co...

This brings it to the residential level.

Is someone is taking steps to avoid causing problems for their neighbors they won't have to worry about a lawsuit. Because even if they are sued they can demonstrate in court that they are taking pains to minimize externalities.

It's possible for people to genuinely dislike the smell for whatever you have in mind for "ethnic". And they have a right to that.

Which is why this thing needs to be thrown out on its head. Whatever ethnicity also has a right to their culture as well.

Smells are weird. I think cow manure smells _good_. Yes, I'm aware it doesn't really, but having spent a large portion of my life in rural areas, there's something almost "homecomingly sweet" about it that registers positive memories for me.

Smells are weird.

Home / apartment search apps adding odor maps the way many have begun to add noise level maps will eventually sort this problem out quite effectively.

https://archive.is/0cKbA

What is the precedent with tobacco smoke? What if the neighbor were smoking cigars?

Not sure about the US but in general smoke is a clearer case because of its well-known impact on health in addition to the insufferable smell. Some countries have banned smoking in restaurants and other places for this reason.

I know of no place on earth that has banned smoking in or around your own property because it offends the nose of neighbors.

That doesn't mean private places haven't made the decision to be smoke free, I certainly don't allow people to smoke in my vehicle, but this is clearly not a case about the health impact of the marijuana smoke. It's not even legal to smoke it in public so there's just no need for the same ordinances that cigarettes have.

For the money she spent on the lawsuit, she could have spent it on sealing all the holes in her walls. You'd be surprised how many homes in the US aren't insulated properly.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com