Ask HN: How can I find a German family by their crest? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How can I find a German family by their crest?

87 pointschristophilus46 comments

I just inherited a ring that has been passed down in my family since WWI. My great grandfather (who was a scoundrel) took a brooch off of a dead German officer in 1915 in Belgium. He had it converted into a ring.

In 1931, my great grandfather coincidentally met the brother of the dead officer. The brother saw the ring and said, "That looks remarkably like a brooch that has been in my family in Bavaria for a long time."

I'm not actually sure if it's a crest, now that I write this. And it's pretty small. If possible, I'd love to figure out how to get it back to that family, but I have no idea where to begin.

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You will have to ask some heralds. You probably have a "badge", which is a diminuitive/selected feature set of a "crest". The design elements of a crest or badge are described as as "a blazon".

https://pro-heraldica.de/en/heraldry/

https://pro-heraldica.de/en/heraldry/terms-of-heraldry/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_heraldry

https://heraldica.hypotheses.org/1767

heraldric blazons are their own little DSL, so you'll need to know how to encode the crest into that language. And of course, it's not just one language; it's many that vary by nation-state-ish-thing, time, etc. You'll want to find a herald who knows about the continental blazoning styles.

a database of german arms from ~1600+: https://data.cerl.org/siebmacher/_search/

Add this to the list:

https://eherold.org/wappenliste/

> You probably have a "badge", which is a diminuitive/selected feature set of a "crest".

Maybe things are different in German heraldry, but in English heraldry, a badge need bear no relation to the owner's coat of arms or crest -- for example, the Tudor Rose of Henry VII (arms: the fleurs-de-lys of France quartered with the lions of England; crest: a crowned lion in a standing pose), or the Stafford knot of the dukes of Buckingham (arms: a red chevron on a gold background).

In England at least, the key difference between a coat of arms (with or without a crest) and a badge is that the former could only be properly worn/carried/displayed by its owner (and his heralds), while the latter could be worn by his followers as a sign of allegiance.

what you say is true for england and sometimes france, for certain, and likely about germany too. germans are different, though: iirc they allow two metals to touch, too, and other stuff.

it’s also possible that OP has a badge of a city or council or guild or whatever too.

Canada has one too!

https://www.gg.ca/en/heraldry/public-register

I happen to be extraordinarily familiar with a similar situation (long story). I think you should be careful who you discuss this with, particularly if the previous owners might get involved.

My advice would be to go to Bavaria yourself, and destroy the ring.

Why? And why on earth in Bavaria?

If we do not heed the lessons of the past, we are doomed to repeat them.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/One_Ring

Because the hearts of men are easily corrupted

The only place that the ring can be destroyed is the place where it was forged

Then it would be Belgium...

Have you ever heard of an event called the First World War?

>> I just inherited a ring that has been passed down in my family since WWI. My great grandfather (who was a scoundrel) took a brooch off of a dead German officer in 1915 in Belgium. He had it converted into a ring.

Yes, and that's why I assume the brooch was converted to a ring in Belgium...

brilliant

You'll have to recruit fellow friends, because you will need help along the way!

He could just ride the federal eagle to Bavaria

So discretely stated it went right over my head. Riiiight over. Brilliant.

https://www.heimat-bayern.de/fachbereiche/heimatpflege-und-h... In Bavaria we have "Heimatpfleger" on communal level which are knowlegable about stuff like this. Maybe ask the statelevel parent organisatiim (link above) and they may forward you to the correct Heimatpfleger

When I opened HN today I really did not expect to find a comment mentioning the Bayerischer Landesverein für Heimatpflege e.V.

well, you should have, and that's on you.

It sounds like an interesting thing to look up. One thing you might want to remember though is that some in Europe, Irish and Scots particularly, get a kick out of winding up guys from America who look a bit gullible and inquire about some connection they have to someone’s country. You’d be surprised how many times I’ve heard Oh you’re from Scotland, do you know Kenneth/Hamish/Calum/etc?” and it is genuinely tempting to say “Yes” and make something silly up.

So just mentally prepare yourself that this could end up being the punchline of a joke that was originally told 100 years back :-)

Don't leave out the English or Welsh.

Winding up Americans unites the UK.

It’s so easy to do, so how can you resist?

Oh no doubt but, and no offence to the English intended, I think the number of Americans who will proudly say "I'm a quarter English!" is miniscule compared to those claiming the same for Irish or Scottish and I haven't heard anyone claiming Welsh heritage personally (despite there being a decent number of American Jones-es)

Maybe you can find a search mask for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebmachers_Wappenbuch somewhere.

Edit: source https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Siebmachers_Wappenbuch

I'd probably just post it here or on Reddit, there are people who'd take up the challenge for free.

Post on reddits /r/whatisthisthing

They can find almost anything.

Reddit would be my bet as well

At least in the Nordic countries there's a book released every 5 years with a list of all noble families including the very minor ones, and all currently living members of said families, with their crests. There's probably a German equivalent if you look for it and you could find it there.

Try the Heraldry subreddit. Those people love this stuff.

https://old.reddit.com/r/heraldry/

If the OP would just post a picture of the ring he would probably have the answer by now.

Good point. I don’t have it in my possession yet, but I’ll post it again when I do. I’ll try Reddit as well.

Is your reddit username the same as this one? I want to see the ring and how long it takes reddit to solve it.

No, it’s not. I’ll have it in a few weeks, I think, so I’ll see if I can post an update then. Otherwise, I’ll make a new HN post just so interested folks can find it.

Well this account is burnt now and linked to whatever account next posts a bavarian looking ring on Reddit. Someone with a super strange post history on Reddit is this very moment making such a post just for the lols.

If it's heraldic, it's sometimes pretty easy to figure out the blazon (The verbal description, which is considered the real definition, the actual picture can have artistic license) for simple things, and then a search can often tell you.

In spite of all the various potential high-tech solutions -- i.e., Google Lens -- I would strongly advise just contacting an antiques brooch specialist. They will know where to look, or may even know the crest from taking an immediate look.

I love the power of technology to make knowledge accessible, but sometimes I feel that we forget that deep expertise exists in people too. There will be someone -- if not a couple of people -- have have likely spent their full life /only/ learning about Bavarian brooches.

First step is to post a link to an image of the supposed crest.

I'd try a google lens, or google image search, as a first try. Reddit and history stackexchange could prove useful too.

The Society for Creative Anachronism has a heraldry group on Facebook there that might be able to help you (if you're on FB): https://www.facebook.com/groups/SCAHeraldryChat

In theory in here are a lot: https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Koerner%2C...

I'm based in Munich (with roots in north-eastern Bavaria), so if you have something specific only a local can do to help, I can see what I can do. Contact details are in my profile.

Use r/whatisthisthing that subreddit is like the research department of the internet.

it is also best to ask at https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/

Have you tried Google Lens?

Google lens

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