A US federal agency is considering a ban on gas stoves | Hacker News Reader

A US federal agency is considering a ban on gas stoves

cnn.com

37 pointsbluedino112 comments

edit: I was mistaken, OR still hasn't done this, but there's been a big push for it in the past year or two and it's still a dumb idea.

They've done this in Oregon to keep carbon emissions down which is a huge mistake IMO. Many rural communities do not have a very reliable grid (I'm in one of them), and the state has done nothing to improve it (this is going to be a big issue when everyone is driving an electric vehicle). This is especially concerning during winter storms when you really need to be able to heat something up.

The winter storm of 2019 for instance had me stuck at home for at least two weeks in 3-4 feet of snow. All electrical was down the entire time, pipes were frozen solid despite leaving taps running, and I had to melt snow for drinking water. Most people don't understand just how much energy melting snow consumes until they've done it themselves -- my stove was going all day long, nonstop. Had I had an electric stove, I would have had to rely on my wood stove but many people don't have that option. The only other realistic option would be to rely on a generator, but for an electric range you're going to both need a big ginny and a lot of fuel on hand for it.

A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation, and to focus on educating people of the hazards of using gas. Also funding a more resilient grid.

Seems like the better approach to address the problem you raise would be to harden the electric grid, which needs to happen anyway for wildfire safety, extreme weather, etc. State governments and even the feds need to mandate burying cables and upgrading old equipment. Gas lines are not foolproof either, just look at what happened in Texas.

> Gas lines are not foolproof either, just look at what happened in Texas.

That was above-ground equipment at natural gas power plants. It takes a hell of a freeze to affect below-grand natural gas pipes. We've had a couple really hard freezes here and the only thing that worked fine was natural gas, while we were out of electricity & internet for the better part of a week.

What do you mean by "a better approach" here? The key is that the poster you responded to survived by virtue of owning a gas stove, so it seems to me like step 1 is simply not banning them, which costs nothing and requires no work. If I were in their situation, I would demand that the grid be made so reliable that this situation be impossible even in a hundred year storm, before a ban even be considered.

No one is banning gas stoves entirely. It's banning gas in new construction. If you're trying to survive a 100 year storm, you're better off with a Coleman camp stove running off of a propane cylinder.

I understand why a Coleman camp stove might be a viable substitute, but why would you be better off with a system which performs worse in every way? This perspective also sweeps aside the living conditions of rural Americans, many of whom own a large gas tank which is refilled a few times a year via truck. They go this route because many regional electrical grids are simply not reliable enough even in the absence of a major storm, and a gas connection is not possible.

> Coleman camp stove running off of a propane cylinder.

And people will be running those inside w/o proper ventilation whereas they could have been using a much safer gas range.

We're talking about emergency situations. A few days of that is still nothing compared to several years with a gas stove, even with "proper ventilation," which is pretty rare in my experience.

This “fix” would cost billions and take years to implement. You would also have to deal with companies against the loss of pole rights and the control that goes along with it. It’s basically costly, time consuming, and politically messy.

People need a solution until something like that can be pulled off.

I agree, but it's a thorny political problem. Nobody wants to pay for burying the lines, even after above ground lines caused one of the biggest fires in state history. Rural communities can't afford it, and the county or state won't pay for it.

Harden? I'd be happy if they were even maintained, much less hardened. There is zero reason that densely built areas can't have buried lines.

I hear you. It should have been a big part of the IRA. Would be a great jobs corps program a la New Deal. Who knows, maybe something for the next big recession.

So long as we have politicians that absolutely refuse to pass any infrastructure bills, for-profit energy companies doing things like NEM 3.0 and somehow making harnessing the free sunlight with rooftop solar a financially non-viable option, and voters that continue to support them despite these things, what can realistically be done?

Melting snow definitely takes a long time and lots of energy but it shouldn’t take all day. I’ve done it plenty in the mountains, and at home when I lived in a dry cabin and would go under budget on our hauled water, but needed to do dishes and didn’t want to make a special trip for more.

One thing a lot of people mistakenly do is just throw a ton of snow into a pot and put it over a flame. Heat melts ice, right? Well, turns out that snow dissipates heat really well, and will sublimate while insulating the snow further inside the bulk of the mass.

You have to wet down the snow to conduct the heat throughout the mass. If you pour in some water to start, it gets the reaction going much better. And then leave some water behind to melt the next batch of snow.

You also want to use the widest pot you can find and keep a lid on it.

Not calling you a liar or saying you did it wrong, just leaving this tip here for others!

I probably didn't use the best technique for melting tbh, it was filling a stock pot and popping it on the stove, then adding more snow as it melted.

> They've done this in Oregon

Can you elaborate? I haven't seen anything banning gas stoves here. Eugene is talking about it, Multnomah County commissioned a report recently on the topic, but who is banning natural gas stoves? Much less at the state level?

I must be mistaken, I swore I heard about this getting passed on OPB about 6 months ago to phase them out in the next decade.

I would guess some people are definitely taking about it. I hear about it more and more. And I won't be surprised if they do try to take some action, though I don't think I'd want to see mandates myself.

But I had a 240V circuit run to my cooktop location a few months ago in anticipation of converting to induction myself. Getting close to pulling the trigger.

> A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation

Or... residential carbon capture for cooking/heating?

Or... regulating the shit out of highly polluting industries and making it seem like people's gas ranges are the reason we're going to blow past 3°? :D

Local solar…

That would work great in the summer if the community has space and exposure. Winter in a mountain valley, not so much.

Recent:

U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 - Jan 2023 (210 comments)

I measured the pollution from my gas stove - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (199 comments)

Gas stoves are more hazardous than we’ve been led to believe (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June 2022 (122 comments)

What a gas stove ban means for restaurants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592 comments)

My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53 days on average - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 - Feb 2022 (117 comments)

How bad is my gas stove? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520 comments)

Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481 comments)

Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec 2020 (343 comments)

I couldn't find the study from the publication mentioned in the article.

I have a gas stove and I cook all the time. The stove is probably burning for upwards of 20 minutes every single day. Is that really a cause of asthma? If 20 minutes does it, wouldn't cooks (presumably with burning stoves for hours and hours 6 days a week) experience it far greater? Maybe professional kitchens have proper ventilation, so it doesn't matter.

I'm assuming the original study would answer some of these questions.

Here's the original study: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75

Though there have been several pointing out the problematic nature of stoves relating to indoor air quality.

It’s been known for decades that gas stoves cause issues for childhood development both physically and mentally. The effect surely exists for adults too but most likely people don’t notice feeling foggy-headed as a serious issue in their lives. And if they do, they don’t know the source.

Yes, and we know that mask use increases CO2 concentrations, especially for people with lower tidal volume (children) and in already moderately high classrooms...

People aren't interested in the truth or alternative solutions. The people in power are interested in forcing their truth and solution on others, because of course we all think we know best. There is of course a policy/philosophical component beyond basic scientific data.

Edit: why disagree?

The article repeatedly mentions childhood asthma specifically. Perhaps because children are more sensitive / smaller / closer to the source?

"closer to the source?"

In general, keeping small kids away from open flames is advisable...

Their air intake is closer to the point of combustion than a fully grown adult (by height).

Wouldn't the combustibles rise, though?

Legit question - I don't know.

The discussions online about this make me wonder what the discussion around asbestos bans or other similar wide spread materials and appliances was like.

You don't have to look too far back -- the absolutely unhinged takes about replacing incandescent light bulbs was a good example. Slightly different since there weren't explicit health concerns with the bulbs but it was still wild.

Edit:

One article from the time - it was a regular bugaboo on Rush for half a decade; https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republic...

I think there were legitimate concerns about mercury in CFLs. But I do remember some people in the media who were more passionate than they were coherent.

Other people had concerns about appearance for exposed bulbs, cold temp operation, etc.

People who don't like mandates focus on edge cases (sometimes legitimately). If something is really better, then I should have a natural incentive to switch. I don't like stuff being forced. As someone else said, better vent hoods could be an alternative solution.

Vent hoods with a gas stove are a mixed bag. Especially if you have a downdraft cooktop. The air movement sucks a tremendous amount of heat away from the burners, it makes a noticeable difference on how much heat makes it into the pan.

And they're rarely used while cooking, are largely ineffective when they are used since the aesthetics of a proper range hood are incompatible with 'design', and add a ton of cost as insulation/air-sealing becomes better since you need to add make-up air if you're running a vent moving a lot of CFM in a 'tight' house. Vents that move a lot of CFM are also really problematic in remodels since they can cause backdrafting of other gas appliances. Building Science had gas stoves figured out awhile ago, they're just incompatible with an efficient / high quality home.

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/hvac/makeup-air-for-kitchen...

On the contrary, professional stainless vent hoods are in style these days. But yeah, the ones I know are mostly in larger homes.

The problem with vent hoods isn't the material, it's how close and how large they need to be in order to be effective.

Most people use the front burners since they're way more convenient, but for a vent hood to capture the combustion byproducts, it needs to extend past the burner in all directions and be fairly close to the surface -- nobody has their vent hood sticking 12" proud of their stove, even in high-end kitchens. And nobody building a nice kitchen is only putting their vent 24" above the stove where they'd be most effective.

Compare a fume hood you'd find in a lab where they actually care about keeping the fumes controlled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_hood#/media/File:Fume_hoo...

Vs. a random high-end kitchen with what appears to be a $10k gas range: https://www.hopedalebuilders.com/hubfs/Featured%20Images%20-...

How often do you think they use that hood while cooking? At what power level? And what percentage of pollutants are caught by that hood?

Heck, even compare it to a commercial kitchen: https://lirp.cdn-website.com/5537b4455a5e43849c5f981982bb482...

Hoods are massive, run the entire time, are designed to pull a blanked of air past the burners into the room, and they extend well past the pollution sources on the sides.

I see you're comparing designs. I'd rather see test data for air quality. The hoods I was talking about did actually extend past the footprint of the stove. Granted they were closer to 3' above vs 2' above. I'd still imagine it works pretty well. Of course fume hoods and gloveboxes work better - typically you're dealing with stuff that is more dangerous.

> they were closer to 3' above vs 2' above

I have to imagine that they were over 3' above, probably closer to 4'. Standard counter height is 36 inches, and 36 more inches only gets you to 6'. That's very low for something that would actually stick out farther than the front of the stove. Sounds like a headache.

The government accepts public comment for regulation changes, as they should since the public is a stakeholder.

But there's no standing to argue against the concept of a mandate in general. The government regulates public utilities, and they can make rules about the products companies sell that interface with the utility. They're not telling you personally to unplug your incandescent bulbs.

(USA-specific)

It's not about being against mandates in general. It's about being against mandates that ignore alternatives, or simply don't work in certain scenarios.

Ah, I see.

I think the rules just say what the minimum efficiency should be. It's up to industry to develop alternatives and invent solutions for the new edge cases, which doesn't always happen quickly.

Sure, but if you intentionally set that so that specific categories of products can't meet it, then it's a defacto ban. It's a pretty common practice with government - if they don't have the power to outright ban something, they add restrictions or roundabout bans until nobody wants to deal with the headache.

I'll probably buy spare halogens for my basement before the ban takes effect. Dimmable PAR style LED are expensive and can interfere with my HAM radio reception without a lot of trial and error on brand.

That's true about the de facto ban. I just meant that sometimes there needs to be regulatory pressure. The pressure isn't painless.

Either stock up or find a new lamp that has a small business exemption or some other circumvention of the rules.

A recent president would regularly complain about the low-flow toilet law from 1992: https://apnews.com/article/7a9a494570b7a505017e726ddbea321f

I always remove the flow-restrictor from new showerheads I buy.

If gas stoves are a respiratory risk, why aren't all chefs (and other restaurant workers and possibly even patrons) overrun with such health issues?

It could be an issue of ventilation, as in commercial kitchens generally have industrial-grade ventilators (by necessity). I imagine the standards for residential kitchens are a lot more lax.

If a link can be found, wouldn't then the issue be one of a gas stove requiring sufficient ventilation rather than banning them outright?

Gas stoves generally work when there's no power and that's a huge issue for a lot of people. The standard for outright banning gas stoves should be incredibly high.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find lobbyists from appliance manufacturers and utilities behind this sudden push to ban household gas appliances.

Recently I've had an experience with a minor gas leak that's left me afraid to even use my furnace. I have a gas furnace, and I live in a rental. The furnace works, but for the first hour of it being on I can smell gas. It's enough that a carbon monoxide detector will go off nearby.

One day I told my partner that I've been feeling super groggy and cloudy-headed for a few months, and we narrowed down the time frame to when I moved into my place. Sure enough, I switch to using a small space heater and two weeks in I'm feeling better than ever before. I 100% attribute the fogginess in my brain to the gas leak. It wasn't enough to cause an explosion, but it doesn't take much to cause serious health problems.

Here's a great video on the topic by Climate Town, an awesome educator on climate change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54

Unburned natural gas is not just a little stinky, it is profoundly nasty. Way, way, way before you could get enough concentration to hurt you, or blow something up, you'd be vacating the premises. Mercaptan is really strong stuff.

Like someone else mentioned, you probably had a malfunctioning furnace. Your symptoms match CO poisoning, and carbon monoxide sensors don't usually detect natural gas leaks -- it's a different molecule entirely.

It likely wasn't a leak. It was likely that the furnace is not properly maintained, resulting in poor ignition allowing unburned gas and CO. Possibly something wrong with the exhaust too.

A leak itself should not make you groggy - gas workers are exposed to fairly high concentrations without issue. However that is a symptom of CO exposure, and your CO alarm triggered...

That’s not a gas leak.

That’s a faulty furnace that needs fixing ASAP, you should notify your landlord right away.

Carbon monoxide is caused by poor combustion.

Whenever this topic comes up people bring up induction stoves. If you live in an apartment that uses electric then you 99% of the time have a shitty coil electric burner and those are absolute trash compared to gas. Induction isn't a possibility unless you are in the more premium apartments which cost a pretty penny or own your home. The more sensible solution is mandating all gas stoves have well vented hoods. I have lived in at least 3 apartments that had stoves with no hoods.

Everything I've heard about induction stoves from people on the internet has been positive. Everything I've heard about induction stoves from people I know IRL who have them has been negative.

Induction stoves don’t use more power than cheap coil stoves, so they are possible in those apartments too.

Whether or not the landlord would pay the premium to install one is another question, but they certainly aren’t impossible.

There’s a zero percent chance that existing gas stoves will be banned, that would be an enormous expense for many landlords (thus tenants), even ignoring the cost of wiring new 50 amp range circuits, it may require service upgrades in many older buildings.

Do you think installing a a properly vented hood is going to be cheaper than an induction range?

An induction range draws a great deal of current, so it might entail a lot of very expensive electrical work. Many places that have gas appliances weren't designed with the idea of an appliance that can draw 40 amps.

There's a Bay Area startup fixing this by adding a battery

https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil...

Can't you get a plugin induction? It takes up counter space, but theoretically could be placed on top of the coil burner

$70 at IKEA[0]. I use mine for hotpot mostly.

0. https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tillreda-portable-induction-coo...

Gas stoves are so nice relative to electric stoves. I guess as the electric production mix moves to renewables gas is becoming increasingly worse in carbon footprint.

What about induction cooktops?

Still not enough power for cooking food really hot. Electric ovens are already the industry standard for top of the line gear, though. Induction will displace gas broadly if we designe houses to feed them enough amps.

> Still not enough power for cooking food really hot.

The highest-power burner I could find on a residential gas stove is 25,000 BTU:

* https://capital-cooking.com/products/culinarian-series/

* https://www.bluestarcooking.com/news/all/much-cooking-power-...

This corresponds to 7.33 kW:

* https://www.pickhvac.com/calculator/btu-to-kw/

There are several induction cooktops available with elements in that range:

* https://blog.yaleappliance.com/best-36-inch-induction-cookto...

Further, the heat of the gas spills out around the cooking vessel and fills the entire kitchen (which you really have to vent properly to be safe), whereas with induction only the metal of the cooking vessel (and its contents) are heating, not the entire room.

My induction stove uses the same 50a circuit as my old electric stove and gets food plenty hot… and quickly, much quicker than the old electric stove with more immediate control. It can char meat black in a frying pan, not sure how much hotter I’d ever need.

IIRC induction stoves are generally a good bit hotter than natural gas. Something like 200F hotter. Maybe you're thinking of radiant electric?

Really? With induction and power boost on I can preheat a cast iron pan in seconds. It usually smokes so I generally don’t. It’s got insane power delivery.

Preheating on induction burners is really fast, but that doesn't mean the stove has a high maximum heat. If you want to to wok cooking or anything similar, you basically need gas.

Your average gas stove isn’t going to get any hotter. I’ve played with them at my in-laws including the very high btu ones and my induction beats it on heat and efficiency any day.

is this a weird US electrical system issue?

Cause I have never heard or seen this problem in Australia.

we're 240v and you guys are 120v right?

> we're 240v and you guys are 120v right?

No. The US is 240V single phase, with an option for split phase 120V on smaller circuits. Cooktops, ranges, and ovens are 240V (technically they're usually both 120V and 240V, but the high draw parts are 240V).

Single family homes in America are 240v rails for large appliances, like stoves/ovens, furnaces, and dryers (two-phase).

Technology Connections (YouTube) explains this fairly well:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4

They'll have to come and take my propane lacanche stove / oven. I live in a very rural mountain area and need to be able to cook when the power goes out. I've been looking into installing a backup generator but they are very expensive and getting an electrician to return a call is like winning the lottery. I have a cutover switch so I can run my well pumps off a small honda generator when the power goes out but without my stove that isn't much use.

I doubt very much anyone is looking to make people switch existing appliances. That's never how it works. First they'll make it illegal to sell new ones. Second, if they really want to get wild, they'll make it illegal to sell a house that has a gas stove. That isn't terribly likely, but there is precedent. In no case are they going to come knock on your door...

So once the law goes into effect no more people can build a rural home?

YMMV but most people I know who live in a rural area have electric. Having a gas stove means maintaining a propane tank. If you really want a gas furnace that might be worth it, and higher end rural homes certainly do, but just about every older/non-wealthy rural house I know of relies more on wood stoves, cadet heaters, and electric ranges.

My gas stove identifies as electric.

It seems very much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to ban them outright. Require a fume hood, and if that is not enough then at least just ban it for new constructions or remodels. Induction is nice but I don't think it covers every niche just yet, and gas stoves are very desirable in places where electricity tends to go out due to weather.

I suddenly have the urge to install a gas stove

Damn, sure hope the government doesn't consider a ban on shooting yourself in the foot next.

Don't tempt me

This is the way.

Another "city" idea without concern for people who live outside of cities. Electricity is really expensive where I live, but gas is cheap. This idea would seriously hurt the household budget.

I moved away from cities to be left alone, but the city folk still feel entitled to tell me how to live.

I love my gas stove, although I've been interested in a precision induction stove. As a statistician, I'd be really interested in digging into this statistic:

> A December 2022 study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that indoor gas stove usage is associated with an increased risk of current asthma among children. The study found that almost 13% of current childhood asthma in the US is attributable to gas stove use.

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75

I read the article (4 pages) and it doesn't seem obviously flawed, but the data is very limited and only for 2019. There also isn't really enough information to reproduce the analysis. I hope the CPSC would base their considerations on a larger, more in-depth study (perhaps over time?)

I also wonder what asthma rates were over time. For example, as gas use declined over decades, did asthma rates also?

It's funny to me how people compare how hot each type of stove gets. Even when I sear a steak, and I like my steaks blue, I barely go above medium on my gas range.

Imo, the best thing about gas is the continuous nature of the output and significantly greater range of temperatures gas can hit, ie much lower than electric and induction. I think it is imperative you have a proper ventilation.

I don't like banning things, and think that mandating proper ventilation would be akin anyway, but given it would reduce carbon emissions and fire risk maybe it does make sense for an outright ban.

Honestly, "for the children" is the weakest argument for the ban.

People harp about maximum BTUs like they need a flame capable of cutting steel or something, but the point is having more burner surface to distribute the flame over a larger area, and not about the maximum heat output of each burner.

What's the reasonableness of this? 40% of homes are gas.

What % of kids with asthma have a gas range? CPSC report doesn't even mention asthma...

Why can't they mandate ventilation? Why a ban?

How much is government giving to move away from gas?

>a rebate of up to $840 for an electric stove or other electric appliances, and up to an $500 to help cover the costs of converting to electric from gas.

That's not bad. Might be able to convert to induction.

So really they aren't banning natgas, this is all about getting people to pull trigger.

update: https://www.cpsc.gov/About-CPSC/Chairman/Alexander-Hoehn-Sar...

"Over the past several days, there has been a lot of attention paid to gas stove emissions and to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards. But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so.

CPSC is researching gas emissions in stoves and exploring new ways to address health risks. CPSC also is actively engaged in strengthening voluntary safety standards for gas stoves. And later this spring, we will be asking the public to provide us with information about gas stove emissions and potential solutions for reducing any associated risks. This is part of our product safety mission – learning about hazards and working to make products safer."

Induction > gas any day of the week. Early induction ranges definitely had quality problems, but now even an average induction range is super nice.

I keep waiting for a company to come along and offer a "pro-style" induction insert that feels like a high-end gas range. I want completely analog controls consisting of front-facing, big-ass, metal, heavy knobs whose only purpose in life is to crank up the heat when you turn them. It should draw 50 amps on a slow day. None of this glass touchscreen crap, no picking a level from 1 to 9, no beeps, no "lock mode" or LCD digits or bluetooth or any of it. This can't be that hard...

This. Especially with stovetop cooking the intuitive feel of just turning the heat up or down a bit as appropriate is huge. I've yet to find any level-based cooktop where the discrete steps are fine-grained enough to match the adjustments I want to make.

Even cheap coil stove tops allow for continuous rather than discreet adjustments, so while the pre-heating process for them takes longer than induction I'm typically able to enjoy the cooking process more overall because I have more confidence that the pan is exactly how hot I want it.

Some options here may be of interest, the combo of gas and induction has been well received in my household. https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/cooking/ranges/professional-...

I happened to be looking today and the Bosch 800 sounds a bit like that (except 40 amps). Big Wolf-style knobs, nice clean design.

I had my panel upgraded this summer anticipating a replacement for our current gas range/stove and this one caught my eye.

YES. How is this not a Wolf product already?

In my experience with an induction cooktop over the holidays was that it heated very un evenly, burning food on one side of the pan, while the other side was not cooking at all. It had a terrible user experience (this is obviously specific to that brand), and was not precise at all; either too hot or too cold. It did boil water quickly, though.

This sounds like an issue with either the cooktop or the pan. A proper setup heats completely evenly, that's actually one of the main selling points versus gas.

Unfortunate typo, I believe you meant “now even”

Why can’t someone make a heat exchanger pot or pan where the combustion air is vented away like we do with gas water heaters and furnaces? It also never sat right with me that there’s a giant tank of near-boiling water in our garage, yet we use a ton more energy to heat up cold water for cooking.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Commerce clause.

Which is currently interpreted WAY too broadly, and I am looking forward to the modern Supreme Court cutting it back.

What specifically do you think is within the commerce clause authority presently that shouldn't be? Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading.

Regulation only of commerce between states, not regulation of every single product under the guise that people might want to buy it across state lines.

That means that if a local farmer wants to sell hyper-organic meat that doesn't have certain USDA-mandated chemicals, they should be allowed to as long as they don't export it across state lines.

That also means that if Pfizer wants to make a drug in my state and sell it here, I don't want the FDA involved. I'll take the bad with the good.

While we're at it, I don't see anything in the constitution about banning Marijuana either, I think they do that under the modern reading of the commerce clause too.

> Certainly regulation of products that are imported for sale or sold across state lines is within even the most restrictive commerce clause reading.

Sure, but you're really only mandating 50 factories instead of banning them.

Yea, the electricity grid fucking sucks so lets ban gas -- people's last hope in a power outage for fresh food or heat.

I'll pass.

This is entirely based on heath concerns -- there's no way to cook with gas indoors that doesn't pollute your home. There are tons of gas furnaces, fire places, and hot water heaters that are "direct vent" so 100% of the combustion air & their byproducts are sequestered outside - perfectly safe to have in your house.

“Last hope” is accurate, because there are various other options for cooking without power that I’d choose before having a gas stove in my house for that purpose. Generator + induction stove, barbecue, camp/backpacking stove, “smokeless” fire pit with the appropriate accessories.

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