Restoration of the ozone layer is back on track, scientists say
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
https://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/
Those of us in the lower southern hemisphere get hit pretty hard with UV radiation in spring (Sep-Nov).
It's ironic that better pollution controls, while causing many health benefits, will potentially make things worse for skin cancer in the northern hemisphere by gradually increase the UV doses, so you all are going to have to get better at sun safety or melanoma will become a much bigger issue there.
How could that be a fact? Axial precession (a) has a period that is much longer than a year, meaning there is no systematic difference between the northern and southern hemispheres; and (b) has a period that is MUCH longer than a year, meaning the difference between the northern and southern hemispheres in the same year is negligible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_parallelism#Earth's_axia...
> Axial precession has a period that is much longer than a year
Yes, much longer. The cycle of axial precession is about 26,000 years.[1]
> meaning there is no systematic difference between the northern and southern hemispheres
This does not follow. The fact that the axial precession's period is much longer than a year means that the angle of the axis can be considered approximately constant during a year. Why would that mean there is no systemic difference between the northern and southern hemispheres?
"Axial precession makes seasonal contrasts more extreme in one hemisphere and less extreme in the other. Currently perihelion occurs during winter in the Northern Hemisphere and in summer in the Southern Hemisphere. This makes Southern Hemisphere summers hotter and moderates Northern Hemisphere seasonal variations."
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2948/milankovitch-orbital-cycl...
Well, you're citing the conclusion of point B and then responding to the conclusion of point A. (Yes, they have identical premises, but B is more technically accurate.)
If the obliquity[1] of the earth is constant during a year (which it effectively is), then there is no difference in the obliquity of the earth between summer of year X and winter of year X, and therefore the obliquity of the earth cannot be responsible for any difference between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere. This should be painfully obvious.
Back on point A, in order for there to be a systematic difference between the seasons in the northern and southern hemispheres, precession would need to have a period that was a multiple of the solar year. This would keep the difference in place over time. Without meeting that requirement, the hypothetical precession-based phenomenon would wander through the calendar year, which would prevent it from systematically having different effects in different hemispheres.
Being a multiple of the solar year is not ruled out by the fact that the precessional period is on the order of tens of thousands years, but it becomes vanishingly unlikely.
> Did you just wrote "much" with capitals and reworded that there is no effect?
No.
> What is the difference between your point a and b?
They are addressing different points.
One is talking about year-to-year differences; if summer in December 2437 is hotter than summer in June 2437, does it follow that summer in December 12437 will be hotter than summer in June 12437? (No, because the precessional period is not related to the orbital period.)
The other is talking about within-year differences. If summer in June 2437 is whatever temperature it is, does it follow that summer in December 2437 will be hotter than that? (No, because the precessional period is much longer than the orbital period.)
> Axial precession makes seasonal contrasts more extreme in one hemisphere and less extreme in the other. Currently perihelion occurs during winter in the Northern Hemisphere and in summer in the Southern Hemisphere. This makes Southern Hemisphere summers hotter and moderates Northern Hemisphere seasonal variations.
This is logically incoherent. There are two problems:
1. Axial precession isn't doing any work here. The difference, as described, comes from an interaction between the earth's orientation and the eccentricity of its orbit. Axial precession has no role to play in the phenomenon; the conclusion ("southern summers are hotter and southern summers are colder") would be equally true if there was no precession. (In fact, more true, since in that case it would remain true into the future.) The effect of precession is described in the following sentence:
> But in about 13,000 years, axial precession will cause these conditions to flip, with the Northern Hemisphere seeing more extremes in solar radiation and the Southern Hemisphere experiencing more moderate seasonal variations.
2. Perihelion is not a concept related to the obliquity of the earth or the axial precession. As such, once you've invoked perihelion, you can't attribute responsibility to obliquity or precession. Going by the description here, there is a period (perihelion) which causes the seasons in one part of the earth to be more extreme, and axial precession is the phenomenon that causes which part of the earth experiences that greater extremity of climate to shift over time. How do you get from "axial precession distributes the effect of perihelion evenly over the earth" to "axial precession is why the seasons are more extreme in the southern hemisphere"?
So, going back to the original claim:
>> but the fact we tilt slightly closer to the sun in summer than the northern hemisphere makes 6-7% difference
This is not a fact. It's false. There is no significant difference in tilt. The difference is in physical distance to the sun, not angular distance to the sun.
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[1] You're making a mistake here; the angle of the earth to the orbital plane ("which latitude points directly at the sun?") is not affected by axial precession ("where in the sky is the north pole?"). I was making the same mistake.
Same reason for a "nuclear winter" post WW3
The sun here definitely hits a lot harder than in Europe.
Remember the Sunblock 5000 commercial from Robocop 2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJzfmWO3CU
I find sunglasses a must-have in these conditions.
Sitting in the sunlight on an even mildly sunny day is scary. If you're paying attention, after only five minutes you'll notice a burning sensation on your exposed limbs. And that is actually what is happening - you're being fried by the Sun's rays.
I'm not sure if this has to do with just the angle of the sun or the hole in the ozone layer? But it's definitely something I've not really felt in many other places, or I've ever seen in the Northern Hemisphere.
Early morning and afternoon on a Sydney beach is beautiful, Midday ? No thanks.
i found this paper to be pretty interesting: https://niwa.co.nz/sites/niwa.co.nz/files/import/attachments...
https://www.noaa.gov/media/image_download/1ad0ade3-5211-4af7...
He'll generally change the subject or focus on some other modern "dystopia" rather than acknowledge being wrong.
We still have to worry about the ozone layer, it leads to higher rates of skin and eye disease, including cancers, it can have deleterious effects on plants, phytoplankton and fish, and it can accelerate the breakdown of different materials[1].
Increased radiation reaching the surface of the Earth has a ton of effects on humans that are pretty awful[2].
[1] https://www.epa.gov/ozone-layer-protection/health-and-enviro...
[2] https://www.epa.gov/sunsafety/health-effects-uv-radiation
At the time I lived under said hole, so it was in the news quite a bit.
Also known as the: Boy-who-cried-wolf-so-we-hired-hunters-who-killed-the-wolfs-and-look-there-is-no-wolfs-anymore-stupid-boy story.
It's an exceptional debating tactic. When you can't win the argument you're having, pivot to an argument that you can win.
This is really low quality thread material and brings nothing to the conversation. Cant you bring this kind of pointless addedums to that other site that must not be named?
Yeah ... he had it! In his glory days he would talk proudly about Jonas Salk but after decades of watching the Two Minutes Hate he may not be such a big fan anymore.
I don't believe him. You can tell him a person on the internet is 100% certain he is a big pharma paid shill crisis actor.
> There is a lot of uncertainty in their findings, Dr. Fahey said, but the basic message is that trying to cool the planet by 0.5 degree Celsius (0.9 degree Fahrenheit), say, through the use of sulfur aerosols, would have some effect on ozone.
Why are these people qualified to mess with our climate?
By "these people" you mean the fossil fuel industries?
I don't like much the trend of being more outraged by people trying to fix the climate than by people breaking it
Seriously, it is already too late to not change it.
Nobody is fully qualified in the eyes of all laypeople so let us do nothing.
This is actually already happening somewhat, due to the use of high-sulfur fuel oil by container ships. Of course, the irony is that certain organisations are attempting to lower this sulfur content, without the realisation that it's actually helping to moderate the temperature of the planet.
The cooling effect from ship pollution is there, but it is a relatively small fraction of the ovrall cooling from atmospheric aerosols.
[1] - Sofiev et al, Cleaner fuels for ships provide public health benefits with climate tradeoffs - http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41467-017-02774-9