Comment by vindarel | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vindarel | Hacker News Reader

This ted talk drew my interest: "Allan Savory: How to green the world’s deserts and reverse climate change" https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_fight_desertif...

> Allan Savory works to promote holistic management in the grasslands of the world.

The note says "Statements in this talk have been challenged by scientists working in this field", but all I could find is that "any gains from greening after grazing are more than offset by methane emitted by the grazing animals". It seems that the method is well known, and that the criticism is on the carbon capture capacities, not the greening power. It may not reverse climate change all by itself, but all the benefits of de-multiplying the biomass, bringing back water, feeding local populations, might work (as illustrated by his works during decades).

Other names I came across are Richard Perkins and Joel Salatin. I found an article that says that 15 million hectares on the five continents are successfully doing holistic management, but it was not sourced.

I'd welcome books or documentaries suggestions on the topic.

I've seen ted talks and read about Mr. Savory's ideas and methods, and from a position of a carnivore it makes (some) sense. But if you really value nature, wild life, appreciate the biodiversity and complex interactions of undisturbed ecosystems, and start seeing animal farming for what it really is, suddenly his ideas begin losing their weight.

I don't like to participate in ad hominem attacks, but in this case ... that man is a livestock farmer directly responsible for the killings of tens of thousands of african elephants. The effect that had on the ecosystems is enormous.

If we were to take the land away from animal farming and return it to the nature, while protecting forests and all animals, including predators, positive effects would surely outweigh mr. Savory's pseudo-scientific endeavours, maybe protecting him from another blunder of his life.

And Mr. Savory could start growing vegetables, it would help more.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory

"... while I was Director 30,529 [elephants] were killed, mostly on culls, and the countrywide population grew from an estimated 44,109 to 52,583 animals.” However, this culling program did not reverse the degradation of the land as expected, and Savory has called his decision to advocate for the culling of large numbers of elephants "the saddest and greatest blunder of my life."

The linked TED talk literally opens with this anecdote, his research into ruminant animal grazing was a giant mea culpa for how he handled those elephants, AND the subject article of this comment section is research affirming the benefit of Savory's techniques.

> The linked TED talk literally opens with this anecdote

I know. And anecdote is a word I'm not sure is apropriate for describing that incident.

> his research into ruminant animal grazing was a giant mea culpa for how he handled those elephants

I know, don't care, not good enough.

> the subject article of this comment section is research affirming the benefit of Savory's techniques

It's true that he tries to manage overgrazing and removal of old growth of grasses, but you can't imho compare natural grazing of bison herds in their natural habitat with a farmer subdividing his fenced plot into several sections and moving his herd from sector A to sector N in a controlled manner.

If you're doing animal agriculture, you're not really helping the nature, doesn't matter how, you're still unnecessary exploiting it. Here, I've said it.

> I know, don't care, not good enough.

It was a horrific mistake but its not like he went out and did it by himself. He had multiple other researchers and the government backing and implementing the plan.

There has to be room in society for people to learn and repair the damage from their mistakes.

> you can't imho compare natural grazing of bison herds in their natural habitat with a farmer subdividing his fenced plot into several sections and moving his herd from sector A to sector N in a controlled manner.

I don't think its a silver bullet to save the meat industry but I don't think the technique should be disregarded outright. For example, AFAIK California doesn't have any native ruminant species so it doesn't make sense to raise cattle here. However, in other parts of the country there is much land which historically was grazed and is now developed for other purposes. Those are precisely the places we could be producing ruminant meet ethically.

Myshpa, I am a farmer. The livestock mimicking the movement of wild herd is a compromise stewarding the land with what is at hand and possible. Yes we should do large scale rewilding projects, but managing brittle environment need disturbance and livestock can do that it's not trying to be the same as a wild and regenerated landscape but it can be a part of the natural succession and furthermore it's being done. It's working and profitable for the landowners, I am aware that things could be better, it's a longterm project regenerated living ecosystem. One step at the time, regenerating land and ecosystems.

I understand, and applaud you for trying do your best to help the nature. Surely what you're doing is better than the alternatives which do exists.

However ... I'll try to explain my position. But it's a complex problem, i don't have enough time to formulate it properly ... anyhow, here goes the gist.

If you look at the problem of animal agriculture from the point, where you're able to acknowledge that meat and dairy is simply not needed (it produces just fraction of world's nutritional needs, while needing 75% of agricultural land [0]), when it's not needed nutritionally [6], when you account in the amount of suffering it causes, when you see the amount of deforestation and biodiversity loss it causes, when you discount your taste buds experiences (and we need meat & dairy in this day and age for nothing else [6]), only then you'll start to see how unnecessary and destructive it all is.

You know ... for the planet to function, we need forests. And not few trees here and there, we need big rain forests on every continent, continuous, large bodies of both new and old growth, several layers of vegetation, full of diversity (= food), biodiversity and only then the forest starts to fulfill its other functions, especially working as a biotic pump and producing rain and self-protect against climate changes, wind and excessive evaporation, draughts, etc. [7] [8]

Those small patches of trees we have and we call forests are not functional in this regard. And can't be, because we have animal agriculture which stole much of their land, and is still stealing immensive parts of land from them.

Sahara and arabian peninsula are deserts probably because of overgrazing [4]. Amazon is dying mainly because of animal agriculture [2]. Deforestation of the last 300 years is a product of animal agriculture [1]. So is a biodiversity loss (did you notice we're in anthropocene now? [5]).

So ... I can't accept animal agriculture as a way out of this mess. I know that everybody's blaming fossil fuels and nothing else, but that's because everybody eats meat and dairy and nobody wants to acknowledge it's him causing it, it's THEM causing it, not me.

In my view we need to stop using both fossil fuels and meat & dairy industry [3], just fossil fuels won't cut it. Those are the largest destroyers of the environment we have. Doing it better is not a way out. It's just normalizing it, putting a pretty mask on something very destructive, while losing time for the real solutions. We've done a plenty of that.

Nothing against you, all in good will. Be well.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets

[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/weve-lost-35-pe...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/04/magazine/amazon-tipping-p...

[3] https://climatehealers.org/the-science/animal-agriculture-po...

[4] https://www.academia.edu/es/38627904/Blame_it_on_the_goats_D...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

[6] https://talkveganto.me/en/facts/suitable-for-all/

[7] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cutting-down-rain...

[8] https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/59/4/341/346941

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate your answer and yes, I agree on your terms and data. To my understanding holistically planned grazing has different potential then the industrial agricultural complex (large industrial feed lots, dairy and pig operations) also accounted for in the data in your reference [0].

Grazing operations can of course differ, but regenerative agriculture and HM are tools which can be used for the betterment of carbon-, nutrient and the water cycle. All tools can be used wrong and therefore cause harm.

I agree that industrial agriculture has gotten out of the planetary boundaries and according to this study actually the contributing factor transgressing 5 boundaries. [1]

There is no ecosystems without animals and we will have to steward the rewilding of things, over time restoring ecosystem. I am aware of the size needed, I am working with this professionally, the natural hydrology needs vast areas to function properly.

We are trying to set the right boundaries in the Anthropocene, agriculture is a vital part of this, I guess my argument is that agriculture can be the segway for stewarding the naturebased inititatives on the vast areas. Regenerative agriculture as an output orientated and holistic approach can function as the middle way granting us a planetary healthy diet [2] (mainly plantbased) and leave room for healthy ecosystem. So much work to do, it's important to recognize the conversion loss as you are stating in animal based nutrients. We can spare a lot of land changing our diets, but we need animals in the landscape to disturb the biological succession of ecosystem. Grass is a great perennial crop.

I will put no arguments forward maintaining the exaggerated industrial agricultural complex, besides we need a fair exit plan for all the involved people. We are only practicing for the much larger exit plan for petrol states.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... [2] https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/the-planetary-hea...

Hi Vindarel. Have you read Allan Savorys book Holistic Management? Savory Institute has successfully developed tools for farmers, grazing planning, decision making and economical planning. The book does a fascinating job explaining a holistic principles first thinking process for managing the ever changing, evolving context of a farm and land stewardship.

I could imaging you would enjoy reading <teaming with microbes> about the life of soils. Paul Hawken does a great job explaining a broader scene with <Drawdown> and <Regeneration> George Monbiot writes a fascinating book <Regenesis> but comes to my understanding to the wrong conclusion.

Planetary Boundaries is my go to reference and the documentary on netflix is always recommended.

I have worked at Richard Perkins farm in 2015.

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