Cooking on gas could be behind kids' asthma symptoms
nltimes.nl
nltimes.nl
I was worried about air quality and wasn't having much luck making my own sensors, so I bought a couple of AirThings air sensors.
Lucky I did. Our furnace air intake pipe had been blocked by multiple birds nests, and the secondary pipe for the water heater was incorrectly connected. Our indoor CO2 levels were higher than 4,000ppm! The levels would also jump when the furnace kicked on, even with windows open.
Thankfully apartment complex maintenance was able to fix it immediately and levels are much lower now, especially when the furnace is running. (About 500ppm with windows open, 700 with them closed and furnace running, 1,100ppm if the windows haven't been open and the furnace hasn't run for a while.) It's possible our health has improved because of the sensors.
I got 2 AirThings View Plus. I'm not affiliated with the company other than having bought their products.
I was able to connect it to my Home Assistant server using a USB Bluetooth dongle which was a nice bonus.
From the readings, I came up with alternative hypothesis about why I felt tired in the afternoon and could use ventilation to reduce that.
> Virus
> Tracking your humidity and keeping CO2 levels low will greatly reduce spread of virus.
Keeping CO2 levels low but I come and cough at the sofa and go will not make any difference.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/04/210407143809.h...
> I know nothing about the product other than seeing some enthusiasm for it on HN, but writing like this would typically be enough for me to discount purchasing anything from the company.
There is a bunch of research on which things grow (or do not grow) at various humidity levels, and having your structure be in the 40-60% range tends to help in reducing various things you don't want to grow. See Figure 1:
* https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/technical%20resources/...
Also:
* https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/humidity-health-and-ster...
* https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/bad-advice-about-indoor-...
Just the facts, please :)
If you prefer an open source / open hardware air quality monitor check out our popular DIY air quality monitor [1]. The built uses high quality sensors for PM, CO2, Temperature and Humidity. You can either build it yourself or get a kit from us with a nice plastic enclosure.
You can also get the SGP41 as an optional module which not only measures TVOCs but also NOx and we can see it reacts to gas ovens/boilers.
Since it is open source, you can either send data to our dashboard or to your own server / home assistant etc. So it does not force you into a subscription or a specific dashboard.
Very cool stuff, I'll share this with my coworkers and social group :)
1. Is SGP41 (the one in your website) something that I can just insert into the PCB like how we could connect a computer case fan into the motherboard header or will it need soldering? Also, I saw in your build instructions that 2 tiny resistors have to be removed for SGP30 sensor. Is that the case with SGP41 as well?
2. Do you sell the "PRO Pre-soldered" kit or any other products/devices that come with SGP41 prebuilt? If not, is there an option to buy the "PRO Pre-soldered" one with SGP41?
3. Will the software automatically start reading SGP41 values or are any changes needed on software side?
2. Just buy the presoldered kit and SGP41 module together (put both items into the shopping cart).
3. Yes. The software will already show the TVOC and NOx values.
Where is the data stored? "In the cloud" (on their servers)? Is there an option to store the data locally and never connect to their servers?
I don't think there's a non-cloud option. They have a chat on their homepage though, if you wanted to find out more than I know :)
Our daughter has asthma. When we were away for 2 months from our home it cleared up substantially. So, we got an air quality monitor (after pretty careful study) last year. Everything was rosy, except the VOCs went off the chart during and after cooking on our gas hob.
And now a few months later everywhere I look I see this study.
Which air quality monitor did you get?
[1] https://www.bora.com/be/de/kochfeldabzugssysteme/bora-s-pure...
Hot stuff from your stove will naturally rise, so capturing it above the stove is much better.
Also, pressure cookers have a vent on the top and blow the steam up.
Also what happens to spillages? Edit: they do say this - "If anything is spilt during cooking, the integrated tray safely catches both solids and liquids." - yeah that's gonna go well.
Like another commenter says, this is total garbage.
I don't really know how it's code but it might be because there's often a window in the room that can be used instead?
I think that's how some bathrooms got away with not having a vent too.
A rare situation of course, but it has happened to me a handful of times over the years (and also the opposite - ventilator in kitchen running at max, kitchen window closed, living room wood stove going, the vent sucks smoke from the living room wood stove and the smoke detector goes off).
As to the other comment - my ventilator doesn't have a carbon filter and I have little experience with those. I recon it will remedy some of the problems with re-venting back into the room compared with the alternative (using nothing). And I've seen vents in Japan with carbon filters, or at least something similar - but they vent outside, not inside. I wonder though about all the other kind of fumes from cooking, the metal-grid "filter" in my vent gets quite greasy and needs to be washed and cleaned now and then.
"You can have carbon filters, why the ugly pipe?" they have said. I prevailed and have a venting one now.
It is indeed almost pointless. If there’s a filter it does at least help a little but many people wouldn’t even know to think about maintaining a filter.
The answer is likely "Yes, it improves things a little bit, but it's still a terrible idea to keep a device spitting dangerous emissions inside your home".
I completely agree, but some people will grab their burning pitchforks and will try to convince you that they can't cook as well on an electric stove.
I use both of them, and gas considerably lowers the air quality (I can feel it), and prefer electric very much, however it has a learning curve, and people don't want to change.
Also, AFAIK, you can't use a wok as it's meant to be used on an electric stove.
As for woks, that hasn't stopped China from being the largest market for induction cooktops, and they even make custom-shaped induction cooktops designed for woks.
I keep a small portable stove adapter which is pretty powerful. It screws to small LPG containers which I can buy anywhere, and provides ample power in a small footprint.
I have a full canister and this adapter [0], and if I ever need to heat something w/o electricity, I just take this out from my storage room.
We are using this setup at a couple locations, one of them is pretty remote, and proved to be very reliable for us during the last decade or so. All locations have electric stoves otherwise.
[0]: https://productimages.hepsiburada.net/s/48/375/1093835551544...
Realistically a western home gas stove isn’t that great for wok cooking either because most don’t get hot enough compared to commercial stoves anyways.
Not that I have anything against it. I got an air purifier myself over these discussions - it seemed like a fairly cheap and easy thing to do in the time of covid, without worrying too much who's behind any possible influence campaigns.
And of course I noticed that my indoors air quality was excellent, except when I was cooking. And I don't even use gas, I use an old non-induction electric stovetop. It's hard to get temperatures right.
Considering getting both an induction stove, and a better sensor that could track CO2 too. After a year with air purification, and after the first bout of a cough-cold in a year, I feel like I appreciate the service my lungs give to my body. Nice to take better care of them (it's time to change that HEPA filter too).
I’ve been investigating this and the market seems crowded. Do you have any research that you did to help you decide? What model did you go with and why?
Sorry for the digression, but I think a random HN reader’s pick is more useful than SEO’s Google results or ConsumerReports or Wirecutter.
On that note, Ikea has some air purifiers[0] that aren't very expensive and use HEPA filters with optional carbon filter to remove smells. They have basic ones and 'smart' ones in different form factors (even one that is a table!). We have cats and it really helped removed the cat smell from out house.
But maybe I'm just being paranoid. There was some sort of notice about source availability on request, so I think it uses GPL software in there somewhere.
In short, I should have done better research myself. But at least it works.
I've poured a couple dozen hours into researching this space, and ultimately came back with a conclusion that what matters is:
- To have a HEPA filter, and
- Something that pushes air through it, and
- If you care about VOCs (whether for health or smell reasons), add a non-shit carbon filter (I say non-shit, as apparently some vendors sell "carbon filters" that have very little activated carbon in them).
All those purifiers that claim to have 5+ different modes of filtering are, to be very charitable here, delivering at most a very tiny improvement in some scenarios, at the cost of much inflated price. It's better to spend that money on getting more air pushed through HEPA filters faster.
HEPA-type air purifiers are increasingly laden with features that add no value, like poor air quality sensors, wifi connections for Alexa/Google assistant, ozone generators that everyone says to disable, bright lights and LED displays, and proprietary filters.
The Clean Air Kits products use commodity parts with as few electronics as necessary, and operate in the way that most people recommend: non-interactively and continuously running at a single speed. They are physically smaller, quieter, and use less power than the other commercial air purifiers.
Charcoal filters, though, seem like they may be worth it in a home as opposed to in a classroom setting. There are unavoidable smells in our daily lives.
Unless you are some high end chef you will not miss out on much by changing to an induction hob and you get a massive indoor air quality boost.
> Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient?
For stuff that needs wood, outdoor grills and smokers work fine.
The difference in taste and feel between Biryani cooked on firewood and LPG cooking is night and day.
You feel like a king when you eat the one cooked on firewood.
[1] https://www.teka.com/en-lt/serie/the-hybrid-hobs/ [2] https://www.winnings.com.au/c/kitchen/cooktops/gas-and-induc...
Linking some as an example but not exactly what we have.
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-cag-r-2-12-12-2-bur...
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-ic3500-countertop-i...
We have a 'dumb' CO2 sensor in our house, and it's been a great analogue for air quality. It might sound stupid, we keep a window fan in for as much of the year that we can. It does wonders for indoor CO2, and hopefully wonders for anything else we shouldn't be breathing.
I too would like air quality sensors but have no interest in collecting data for the company I buy the device from.
I would go a step further and argue that western kitchens are built incorrectly and should be outside of the living areas and in fact outside of the building itself. My wife and I typically cook outside only using an outdoor kitchen. It is impossible to properly vent cooking pollutants from a house. You would end up having to use a commercial vent hood and with that most likely design a makeup air system to prevent a vacuum inside of the house, not worth it imo.
Induction is awesome but does have its limitations. I think it would be pretty hard to replicate wok style cooking with induction, you want not only the bottom but the sides to get hot as well. My own experience most 30+ asian households would prefer to cook on gas, younger generations just eat out and do not care. High temp searing on induction can cause premature failure in the unit. Have seen it happen across the spectrum of prices, there is just too much heat going into the induction unit. With that said, induction is indeed awesome.
If I did not have access to an outdoor kitchen I would prefer the style of a Chinese apartment kitchen. I am sure it can vary but most/all of the chinese apartments I have seen have a kitchen setup in such a way that it can be isolated from the rest of the unit. When cooking you can slide the glass doors closed, open the window and turn on the vent hood. Almost like being outside.
1. We now accept that cooking with wood causes lung disease/cancer. There are studies that show an increased rate of lung issues with women in developing countries due to inhalation of smoke.
2. We are increasingly seeing studies that show inhaling any pollutants is not safe/healthy. I am not fear mongering about it but I do try to be more aware because of this.
3. When I cook in my kitchen I see pm2 and voc measurments spike almost instantly even on measurement devices in a bedroom across the house. This is without having central air on at the time. Our home is 20ish years old and not modern air tight. I once burned some bread in the oven slightly, just the smallest bit of visible smoke came out of the oven, readings spiked and stayed that way for 2hours even with two medium size hepa filters on.
4. I originally came to my conclusion prior to the more recent studies showing indoor natural gas combustion can be an issue. Originall I was more concerned with pollutants that come from the cooking process as it is very hard to ventilate inside a house. When I originally read some of these studies and it appeared that the main issue was burners that were combusting improperly.
So its mostly my own extrapolation based on what has been seen in populations that are exposed to pollutants on a regular basis. I could be overthinking it but it makes sense to me that its best to reduce exposure where possible. I cook outside and it keeps both the smells and the pollutants out of the home. And I also just make my original statement with the functionality of chinese style apartment kitchens. The kitchen is almost like a wetroom in a sense but for smells. It closes off from the rest of the unit and is open to the outside so you can do whatever you want cooking wise and not impact the rest of the unit.
This is the part it seems like most people are not considering. The actual cooking of food, especially if something gets burnt, creates far more "hazardous" vapors than anything else, unless you have malfunctioning equipment. I put it in scare quotes because at the end of the day you have to live your life and if you mainly take care of yourself you'll have a healthy life, even if you burn some toast here and there. Get a great extraction system that can remove > 500 CFM and start it before you cook and run it for 10m after.
> We now accept that cooking with wood causes lung disease/cancer.
It's also completely enjoyable. I cook over open fire probably about 20 times a year and over charcoal many more times. I love cooking with wood and smoking food. The process of it is completely relaxing and enjoyable. It's a risk worth taking. It's also done in the most vented possible area - outdoors.
I don't think either need to be villified. I still smoke meats with wood a few times a week and we don't fret over burning anything. Since we cook at home daily we shoot to minimize it though.
that means that in order to reduce pollutants inside we need to change how we cook, prefer electric, grilling only in a closed oven that can trap pollutants, etc...
This was something someone had made and was selling through their own site. Anyone remember this? I'm unable to find it.
Small gas stove to heat maybe it's different, but cooking...
I would imagine part of the perception problem is that when we can see pollution as in a natural fire to roast meat as oppose to burning some fuel source to form the fire in which we really do not physically see the pollution although it is there.
Get a good vent system (> 500 cubic feet/minute) with a makeup-air unit (this is code nowadays) and you’ll never even know cooking happened.
It should be larger than the top of the stove and it should have noticeable air movement when on - and you need to have makeup air.
The currently linked article is only a very brief summary.
Public health is probably a sufficient reason to phase out gas for cooking wherever we can.
What will be very interesting to watch are the cultural developments around the stove: Wok cooking without gas is unimaginable to many people, what's a possible solution here? Roasting/blackening vegetables over gas in Indian and other cuisines. Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient?
Personally, for me, an induction stovetop and a single gas unit is the dream. Perfect wok cooking, some veggie blackening, I can still use some (warped on electric stove) antique, thin castiron pieces from my grandparents. But the other 90% of the time, induction is just insanely more precise, fast and easy to use.
There are actually some excellent electric woks.
> Sure, you can use an electric oven, but is this really more efficient?
It's probably not that different in terms of efficiency, I would have thought. But it could even be acceptable for it to be a bit less efficient if it is less harmful for the occupants of the house.
Not sure if you can achieve wok hei with those (which seems to be THE thing that differentiates wok cooking from anything else). Some background from the nyt: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/dining/stir-fry-recipe-wo...
[1]: https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery...
But let’s continue to brainwash for money and FUD.