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Comment by p1mrx | Hacker News Reader

It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates: inject the whole "database" and your body scans for currently-known threats. Does the immune system have a capacity limit?

I wonder if the technology will reach a point where we can print mRNA on demand. Could we build a database of bacteriophage viruses that target various strains of bacteria, and use custom-printed mRNA to produce the correct virus when someone has a bacterial infection?

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IIRC, “printing mRNA vaccines on demand” was pretty much Moderna’s original startup pitch. Their idea was to create custom cancer vaccines for each patient.

It was concerning to see the mRNA vaccines associated with myocarditis. It seems like that made the public unnecessarily skeptical of mRNA as a technology. But my understanding is that was a protein engineering issue that could have happened with any vaccine technology and was not specific to mRNA as a platform.

Are there any experts here that can confirm that is a coincidence or explain why mRNA as a technology is more susceptible to issues like that?

Myocarditis is a common immune reaction and not specific to mRNA or even vaccines https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6786665/

This is a case study of myocarditis after an influenza vaccine. This single data point, or even the fact that this is a possible immune reaction doesn't really speak to the issue I'm asking about.

In the last few years a slew of COVID vaccines were widely deployed without myocarditis as a complication. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines made headline news for their elevated risk of myocarditis, and resulted in changes in vaccine recommendations for certain demographics. Both were mRNA based. Do they have other things in common, dosage, proteins, preservatives, shelf lives? What else is similar between them and different from the other vaccines?

Common is probably not the best word choice here.

The number of things your immune system knows about is absolutely enormous and grows everyday. Vaccinations are a tiny drop in the bucket

This is a bit offtopic . Is it possible to wipe that memory? Sounds like it would resolve all Autoimmune disease

I believe one of the effects of measles infection is that sort of wiping of immune memory. It's one of the things that makes childhood measles so nasty.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03324-7

That's super interesting. Someone should start investigating that line to treat autoimmune diseases.

Many autoimmune diseases don't appear to be caused by immune memory, at least alone. There is evidence for cyclic inflammation by the innate immune system and also latent inflammation from gut bacteria and their outputs.

What you are describing (bone marrow radiation) has been used to treat Multiple Sclerosis. But diets (which radically change gut bacteria) have also been used to treat MS. So it's complicated, and it's possible for what is currently considered a single disease to be a common symptomatology for different root causes.

I think the HIV virus can do that, but there are a few side effects.

My understanding it they do something like this for bone marrow transplants with radiation/chemotherapy. Hopefully helps with Google searches, or someone coming to correct me :)

Also notable that this is a beyond extreme treatment. Incredibly stressful on the body, a method of last resort. Through, it has had a few high profile success stories.

yes they still do something like this, but its more like yanking the memory modules out, and replacing them rather than flush and zero.

Well, we kind of do it during blood cancer chemotherapy. It probably resolves some autoimmune diseases but also makes you liable to dying of common cold.

No to mention that without boosting, immune memory fades over time.

This is a gross oversimplification.

Many things do not need any sort of boosting and you retain lifetime immunity or near-immunity.

Show me the literature, nothing has true lifetime immunity. You get close to lifetime immunity but the curves will continue dropping.

We print RNA on demand already. There’s a company called Synthego that invented a lab-in-a-box to synthesize arbitrary oligonucleotides in a machine that fits inside a server rack. They use their technology to sell full genome engineering solutions.

https://www.synthego.com/

    > It seems that mRNA vaccines are becoming like antivirus software updates

Uh...is this supposed to make us feel better or worse?

This. I worry we will exhaust our genetic engines and deteriorate our bodies by overuse.

The immune system has already been dealing with the problem of finite resources for the past 500M years or so.

The biggest issue is that circulating neutralizing antibodies take up a finite fraction of the blood. One of the reasons why neutralizing antibodies fade over time is to literally make more space for other antibodies. One of the reasons why you need a boost of a vaccine at least 6 months after the first dose is that somatic hypermutation takes time to develop high affinity neutralizing antibodies that are effective in much small fractions of the blood.

Even after that though neutralizing antibodies still tend to fade and what is left is just the memory T-cells and B-cells in lymph tissue. So the immune system naturally activates and deactivates. But this is more like a book on a bookshelf. It isn't really consuming "energy" and there's a massive amount of them that are available.

You also need to be much more worried about all the naturally occurring viruses and antigens that you're being exposed to--including the ones that don't actually get you sick at all. You're worrying about the sparring partners of a heavyweight prizefighter "sapping their energy" and ignoring the real opponents.

If you've read something about COVID and lympocytopenia ("T-cell exhaustion") then that only happens in severe COVID and shows up in autopsies and is studied as an indicator of how mild (unhospitalized) COVID turns into severe life-threatening COVID. The people who talk about that on social media are literally ignorant idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

Well, worry not! Research suggests that the human body can produce up to a quintillion unique antibodies! A vaccine is a drop in a solar-system.

https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2019/2019...

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