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Comment by sdo72 | Hacker News Reader

I get flu vaccines yearly, and every time I still get sick. My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times. I really don't know if the flu vaccine does anything, but it definitely gives me lots of doubts.

Then we had a family member who got very sick a month or two ago because of the flu, he was sent to ER, ICU, and eventually didn't make it. That sent a shock wave to our family. He planned to get the flu vaccine a bit later but got sick right before.

Please get vaccinated, if it doesn't work well, it may give us the second chance to survive.

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Something that following the progress of COVID vaccines really taught me is that vaccines have an important role in reducing the severity of a disease in addition to stopping them outright. I'd much rather get a mild flu than a moderate flu, let alone a severe one.

This seems to be particularly true for fast-acting viral respiratory diseases. Our immune systems seem to have soft biological limits on how well they can prevent them.

There’s a population factor and an individual factor. Let’s say it’s half effective. By vaccinating the population, the virus spreads more slowly, since half of people are dead ends. So you wind up with less cases in aggregate — and potentially exponentially less.

Also very true! Blunting logarithmic growth is a huge net positive.

Part of the issue with fast-acting viral respiratory diseases seems to be that vaccines don't induce mucosal immunity: "Currently approved SARS-CoV-2 vaccines induce robust systemic immunity but poor immunity at the respiratory mucosa, meaning that they are highly effective against symptomatic disease but do not prevent viral transmission."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-022-01405-w

That's very interesting. Just goes to show that there's plenty to be learned. Thanks for sharing.

Are you certain you're getting the flu every year? Do you get tested for it?

A lot of people assume they have the flu when it's really a bad cold

I get chills, fever, aches, and sometimes headaches. Those are flu viruses.

All of those are symptoms of non-flu viruses too. Statistically, it's far more likely you had a cold.

You can get a fever, aches, and headaches from the cold as well

I think reduction of chance of getting infected that you can get from flu vaccine is very modest and in any single case can be easily drowned in the noise caused by all other factors. But it's visible in epidemiological data.

> My kids got the vaccine this year, and all of them got sick because of the flu, 3 times.

probably not.

I had the flu 10 times one year in high school, coincidentally on days I didn't do my homework. Weird!

Thanks for sharing this. It's not about not getting sick. It's about getting less sick than you would have if you didn't get vaccinated.

No, it's also about not getting sick.

The "vaccine is not about preventing the infection" meme got really annoying since COVID, since the COVID vaccine while very useful turned out to not be as useful for infection prevention as we'd thought.

That does not change the fact that the role of a "vaccine" is mainly to prevent the infection, and the "getting less sick" fact is a second class effect.

> it's also about not getting sick

You’re correct [1]. The vaccine mainly aims to reduce the frequency and intensity of illness.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

You're describing sterilizing immunity, which is a property that only some vaccines provide.

More generally, vaccines are just a mechanism for acquiring immunity. Immunity doesn't mean "you don't feel sick," it means "your immune systems responds better and faster to the real thing."

I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick". That is exactly how most vaccines have been advertised for years, and how most people think of them.

I do not need to need to be educated about how vaccines work, I know that there is a secondary effect of vaccines that primes your immune system and makes the disease easier to fight. But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".

You're talking about a simplified "pop" understanding of what a vaccine is and does. Even in elementary school I wasn't told that a vaccine prevents disease; I was told that it provokes an immune response that provides resistance to a disease.

The fact that people confuse the two is a legitimate public education problem. But it doesn't change what they actually are, or how medical professionals use the word.

> But it's a secondary effect, otherwise we would call more things "vaccines", as we know that for example "exercise helps with immune response".

It is the effect. I think everybody understands the difference between taking care of yourself and receiving a medical preparation that stimulates your immune system against a specific disease.

> I am not describing sterilizing immunity, I am saying that the original, and the most common understanding of what a vaccine is is "something that you take that makes you not get sick".

The CDC changed the definition of vaccine on Sept 2, 2021 and removed the reference to immunity.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20210901163633/https://www.cdc.g...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20210902194040/https://www.cdc.g...

And just to preempt your question, every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.

    > every news source reachable via Google says the change has nothing to do with COVID or the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine.

Does that sound logical to you? The definition went unchanged for years until the CDC came under direct attack for the effectiveness of the COVID vaccine compared to other vaccines. If it's unrelated, wouldn't that make it quite a coincidence?

I think the person you're responding to is being facetious.

Either way, it doesn't matter: the website in question is a public information page, not a medical reference. The CDC updated it because it was incorrect, and the timing of their update makes perfect sense given the public's confusion (and predation around that confusion).

You're being overly proscriptive about vaccines. Vaccines have multiple layers of effect because our immune systems have multiple layers of effect. You don't neglect the seatbelts just because the car is more likely to crash in the first place.

In which place am I overly proscriptive? In the paragraph where I say that the vaccines are ALSO intended to prevent people from getting sick? If anything it's the OP who is overly reductive.

At no point did I say that you should not get vaccinated, you are putting words in my mouth. I said that the original intention of vaccines was to prevent infection. It is still the main way that most people conceptualizes vaccines too.

Small sample sizes can make it very difficult to determine effectiveness. Fortunately there is a ton of data out though if you are curious. The effectiveness does vary widely from year to year.

Vaccine is against one type of flu. Maybe you didn’t get sick with the other one but only this one. This is what the article is talking about. Covering all flu so that you don’t get sick.

I don't want the flu vaccine for neigher me nor my children. I want us to get sick and our immune systems to take care of the flu together with some garlic, hot tea and down time. At the same time the adults are vaccinated for COVID and our children are vaccinated for the usual stuff that will kill them.

I think that my employer really wants to avoid any downtime of his workforce and suggests a flu vaccination every year. I think that some downtime is good for my wellbeing and that I don't wan't to be more effective.

Then take actual downtime. You can't relax when you have a fever.

Being on the management side of things for a company that offered free flu shots in office for convenience to the employees (despite health insurance coverage at doctors offices and pharmacies), we absolutely did it to minimize the sick time impact to the company.

I do not see what is wrong with that motive. Companies have a duty to protect themselves do they not?

Companies can do whatever they want. I just don't want to be a part of it. :)

You probably shouldn't work for a company then...

Well it certainly wasn’t mandatory and no records were kept of who did and who didn’t, and there was no stigma or recourse if someone opted out.

However it was definitely effectively in decreasing the number of employees who took sick time during flu season though. Just the convenience of running down to the break room to get it vs going to a clinic increased the number of employees who would get the seasonal shot.

I think you seriously underestimate just how bad the flu can be. Perhaps you've not experienced it really bad? In the 2010-2011 year, there were ~290,000 hospitalizations from the flu, and ~37,000 deaths. There were 10 million medical visits. And all of that is _with_ people being vaccinated. I expect it would be much worse without vaccinations.

Sure, most of the time you get the flu it sucks but it's not a big deal... but it can be pretty bad. It's well worth getting the vaccination, especially if your company or insurance provides it for free, just to avoid the possibility of severe issues.

I had a serious flu 3 times that I remember. Fever for a few days and hurting all over. This is goes away if I drink plenty of fluids and get rest.

I might change my mind when I get older but right now I don't mind this.

Also I don't understand the negative comments. I don't reject vaccines in general. I just don't think that flu vaccination is required for me. Yes, I know that flu might kill me one day, but so can so much else.

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