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Comment by marconlp | Hacker News Reader

I've seen a lot of discussion about my choice of looking for a job directly after Highschool.

Reasons against college

- I recently visited a College Conference and wans't really impressed by any of them, mainly because their presented curriculum where basic js, css, html, react, easy leetcode algorithms which I already know

- I don't really happy with my current position in School, where I sit and listen to the teacher talking about a topic for an hour which I could teach myself with a 5 min youtube video

- Additionally my plan was to move to the US where Waterloo University would be 100k a year for non-us-citizen

- I've heard that after a few years of working as a Software Engineer the college degree doesn't matter anymore

- Having an income

- learning from experienced Software Engineers

Reasons for college:

- the life experience

- some people say getting a job without a degree is almost impossible

What do you guys think about this list?

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> move to the US where Waterloo University would be 100k a year for non-us-citizen

That sounds like a terrible idea, to be fair. (And you don't mean University of Waterloo in Canada?). Isn't University free in Germany?

> mainly because their presented curriculum where basic js, css, html, react, easy leetcode algorithms

Maybe, but are you sure they aren't teaching engineering ethics, digital logic, discrete algebra, calculus, and a lot of other things too?

Additionally, you will never again get the chance to be 18-22 and around a whole bunch of 18-22 year-olds again. It will never be easier in your life to make friends. You have your whole life to be programming. Don't make the same mistake I made. Live it up. Study abroad. Go on spring break with friends.

Good points- this is not just a cost-benefit exercise on your CV/Resume.

There are formative life and social experiences in college at 18-22, which are difficult to recreate when you're older.

Many of the friendships and experiences won't just improve your CV - they can enrich the rest of your life.

> That sounds like a terrible idea, to be fair. (And you don't mean University of Waterloo in Canada?). Isn't University free in Germany?

U of Waterloo co-op program is basically a guaranteed FAANG tier job on graduation if you have any talent, which Marcus obviously has a great deal of. I have never, not once, regretted hiring a Waterloo CS grad. They have an exceptional program.

I got my first programming job at 19 (I started interviewing at 18), and the job description required at least 3 years of experience. I got an interview loop on the basis of sharing the source for some hobby programming I did. From there it was mine to lose. You have a hobby program that is impressing a number of industry professionals already, so if you want to pursue that route I assure you that with perseverance you will get a fulltime position. Whether or not it's wise for you to do so I prefer not to advise you on. I can only say that I "withdrew" from college to work and haven't regretted it since. But those were different times and different circumstances so I have no idea if that's a good idea or not now. And for what it's worth I also have a very high opinion of the mathematically rigorous approach to CS that at least used to be de rigueur at continental universities. So if those programs are still as good as they used to be you might want to consider that too.

With regard to getting that first job: unless you do a co-op program like Waterloo, there is basically no way to get an intro job without not actually meeting the experience requirements. You never see listings saying "No experience necessary!"

WWU has a pretty math heavy curriculum (although there are now less rigouros math courses for Informatikstudenten) and you will learn a lot of abstract thinking, computational theory, optimizations, operating systems, databases (with theoretical foundations), computer graphics, computer vision, machine learning and you can get a glimpse into things like Medizinische Informatik in seminars.

Take a look at the course list, pick one that sound interesting and just go there for a day or two in a big hörsaal, no one will care about you. Vorlesungen are boring but it will give you insights on the topics you will study there.

In most courses no one will care whether you go there or not, just do it at home and quicker.

You won‘t need all of that but it will give you a strong foundation for whatever the future holds.

If you want to work look for part time positions and study on the side. It‘s easy because the cost is only €600/year and includes public transport.

The degree will help you everywhere: immigration, getting past hr, getting jobs that go beyond web dev etc.

Be careful about trying to recreate campus experience with YouTube videos at home. If a lecture is basic and you could indeed replace it with a quick video, look for better, more challenging or unique lectures/degrees/curricula. The whole adage of if you’re the smartest guy in the room, you’re in the wrong wrong room.

You’ll quickly reach a point where YouTube and Google won’t easily do, and only genuine and deep work will. That’s when rewarding, lasting impressions will happen (which superficial topics like HTML or the latest JS framework aren’t!). It shouldn’t be like just another frontend boot camp, just longer. Challenge yourself and reap the benefits forever. That and campus life in general of course…

I'm also experiencing OP's problem.

> If a lecture is basic and you could indeed replace it with a quick video, look for better, more challenging or unique lectures/degrees/curricula.

This has for years been a point of frustration for me.

Do you have any suggestions on how to get into more challenging lectures when the previous ones are prerequisites, and cannot be tested out of?

> Do you have any suggestions on how to get into more challenging lectures when the previous ones are prerequisites, and cannot be tested out of?

Not much you can do. However, even university administration is just people, at the end of the day. It's surprising how much can be achieved and how many rules can be bent favourably if one simply asks nicely, or has the right connections. That said, you'll need some proof that you're capable of skipping classes. "I find it easy" wouldn't do.

As a person in college right now, I think you should do what you think is best for you. If you end up regretting not going to college, you can always go back and get your bachelors and pay for it yourself.

As for why I went to college; I made that decision because I didn't really know what I wanted to do or where I was headed and I wasn't experienced at all in programming or any CS related topics.

The main benefit for me was being in an environment where I was introduced to new CS topics/ideas. As for having a deep understanding of those topics and how to implement them, I had to self study/teach myself.

My point is, is that you shouldn't feel pressured to do anything. You need to make a decision that works best for you because the value of uni/college is, and will be, different for everyone. :)

I created a smart planner app at a similar age [1] and I'm now in my third year of university studying CS. I've also had a taste of industry from building a journal app as a freelancer [2], interning at a department of my uni [3] and interning at Wise [4].

- The whole js, css, html, react stuff sounds more like a beginner web dev bootcamp that should last a few months rather than a 3-4 year CS degree. Avoid that.

- Sometimes YouTube is great. E.g., a playlist from a Cambridge lecturer [5] was immensely more valuable than the live lectures I was being delivered alongside 200+ other students. I don't think lectures are efficient but I typically have a mix of lectures + labs + coursework and now, a substantial individual project supervised by a researcher. I'm excited for the future of edtech and programs like OSSU [6] are great if the focus is purely on absorbing CS content but its limited. Something else I found is that the modules I dreaded the most and certainly wouldn't have opted into had they been optional were the ones I learned the most from. Who knew that an Interaction Design class would be so relevant for doing customer discovery in a startup.

- No doubt that you can also have an income while studying.

- Pick up an internship to learn from experienced software engineers.

- The life experience is something I'll miss dearly, be it sports, socialising, dipping into the startup culture (We have an on campus accelerator).

- I stress more about turning down jobs than worrying about not having one.

If you have access to a quality CS degree that doesn't cost you a kidney then go for it.

[1] https://github.com/Cheon-App/planner [2] https://reflection.app [3] https://the-ciru.com [4] https://medium.com/wise-engineering/wise-engineering-interns... [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEAMfLPZZhE&list=PLeKd45zvjc... [6] https://github.com/ossu/computer-science

You have a good instinct there.

Go work for as long as you think it's rewarding, and maybe in a few years you might want to go to university and then you can easily work part time as a freelancer. You'll be one of the few students who don't have to worry about money.

Anyway, do whatever motivates you the most right now!

If you're interested in working in Berlin, send me message, I might be able to give you some recommendations and/or contacts depending on what you want to do.

Hi, definitely interested! I couldn't find any contact information on your HN account.

You can do both.

I'm almost the same age as you.

I work full time with university (both remote and in separate timezone). There are partial remote options for CS which didn't exist before pandemic. You may only need to attend for semester and in-between exams in person and rest you can run it on your own pace.

I don't spend much time on university since there is no mandatory lecture or attendance. I know a lot of the course work already so I can do fine on submissions, exams, etc without having to attend remote lectures and watching videos.

It can be tough especially with maths and there is no campus lifestyle.

Daily meeting is with people in 40s instead of 18-20 year olds but I love that, some may not.

I only need the degree and some formal framework so I'm not super picky about the university ranking. Most options available are not "elite" so that's something to consider.

They are also paid out of pocket unlike germany where university is free. It can be expensive but since I work, I don't have to worry about it.

You need to watch out for accreditation. There are few authorities in each countries with specific rules with regards to whether the degree will be recognized if done part time or partially remote.

You can also get an equivalence certificate for immigration purposes.

The trade offs made sense for me. It may not for you or someone else. I'm happy with my current position.

Feel free to email me (in the profile) if you want to discuss or learn more. Throwaway for privacy reasons.

If you choose not to go to college, I encourage you to write a lot. Communication is a thing you practice a lot in college, possibly without even noticing.

An additional pro of university is that it can teach you things that you might never learn working, and it let's you "test" your interests without having to work in a specific field.

This is invaluable as time will start slipping in front of you faster and faster, and soon you won't have time anymore to experiment and try new things.

As a general advice, I'd tell you to give college a try, and apply to something that is only tangentially close to coding. Keep working on your startup and keep improving your CS skills as you have been doing, and in College try new things. Whether you want to be a coder or an entrepreneur, you'll require many different skills. A diverse study plan that includes a bit of different subjects (economics, law and alikes) can be very useful.

Think of what you have achieved in only 17 years, and then try to picture where you'll be in another 20. And what the world will look like in 20 years. Your most valuable asset is and will be your brain, so the most you can develop it, the better.

Disclaimer: I'm a University professor

Just to be sure, do you mean Waterloo University? If so, this is in Ontario, Canada, not the US. You could always go to Waterloo or another reputable school for a master's degree, if you'd like to specialize in something you find yourself liking while in post-secondary.

I was just listing Waterloo University as an example as that is the one Joma Tech went to: https://www.youtube.com/c/jomaoppa

If you're not interested in learning about CS in Uni-level, how about looking at other fields? I'm an economics bachelor myself, learning everything about s/w dev outside of college, but I find applying what I've learned to ML and business to be really fun and, well, don't regret it at all.

If you have any interest in other fields, such as communication, I.R., psychology, or economics, they'd be helpful I think. And you can clear out those pesky migrate-with-bachelors visa requirements people have mentioned.

There are also correspondence college courses (traditional MOOC equivalent), but yeah, it's not really a substitute for undergraduate life.

First of all, congratulations! This is fantastic work at any age, let alone 17.

One piece of advice - you should do some research on US/Canadian immigration policies and how a college degree affects (or doesn’t affect) your ability to immigrate. This is something that may not be top of mind for you, but if your goal is to move to the US it’s a very important factor to consider.

You could also think about apprenticeships. They're gaining in popularity and prestige across many countries now.

Big players such as Google offer software engineering apprenticeships targeted at people interested in tech but without formal CS degrees. They're a great way to learn, do real work and rotate around different teams.

You're probably right that a college is not the fastest or cheapest way for you to learn but the world works in funny ways. You might find a degree opens more doors than it should.

That said there are ways to get those qualifications at your own pace and much cheaper. Find a way to speed run a degree. It'll be worth it.

> Find a way to speed run a degree. It'll be worth it.

Yeah there are many options. One thing you can do if you have any other advanced qualification and work experience is directly enroll in an online master's program. Some universities allow it. Some will take passing certain exams at the same level as bachelor but those exams do not require you to spend 4 years specifically. You can take them anytime depending on knowledge.

This way, you can speed run through an advanced degree in 2 years remotely while working full time. OMSCS has good reputation and there are other solid programs.

At last, you could also do part time university targetted at adults which provide more leeway in attendance or group activities.

> You might find a degree opens more doors than it should.

You might, but it (typically) comes so late in life is it really worth it? I worked while my friends went to college. They're now starting to see these doors open. I'm ready to retire.

> Find a way to speed run a degree. It'll be worth it.

That will help over a traditional track, but unless you're ready to speed run a degree at like the age of 10, you're still going to be way behind. Due to the time value of money, the most valuable working years are in your teens (or even before, although the law can often make that a challenge).

Back in the day my theory of college education was: figure out what you’re good at so you don’t have to work very hard and spend the maximum amount of time partying on the government’s dime.

If what you’re good at is a marketable skill (mine wasn’t) then all the better.

Also, probably not the best advice.

Maybe "duales Studium" could be some kind of middle ground?

I can only second that. Sounds exactly what OP is looking for.

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