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Comment by tshaddox | Hacker News Reader

Over the last several weeks I have been deep in research for a new digital piano, spending a lot of time looking at Roland, Kawai, and Yamaha models, and seeing this made me giggle. I doubt I would ever buy even one of the less traditional-looking production models (like the Kiyola), but I am glad they have fun with creating wild concepts like this.

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A good percentage of the producer digital pianos are just the flat keyboard and controls housed in a structure meant to look like a traditional piano.

The new Casio, for example, looks relatively modern and fits like furniture, but you could remove the body and put it into any crazy design you like.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PXS7000BK--casio-px-...

Got the kids a $2k Roland FP 90x for Christmas to replace a $1k Casio. I don't play but they liked the Roland action when we tried their models in stores over Yamaha, Casio, and some others. Now that we have it- incredible instrument, well worth the upgrade, good match for their skills. It is a really, really good sound producer, better than most analog pianos I've heard, though I can easily tell the difference between it and their teacher's Steinway grand. The sounds emitted by the Roland are very fine, but still digital. It feels like a $10k digital would get much closer to being able to trick a listener into thinking it was a fine analog.

It's a matter of taste I guess. I had a Yamaha and switched to Roland and much prefer the chunkier key action and the slightly brighter/compressed piano tone. Definitely important to try it in store.

My absolute favourite is the Nord Grand, but it's a little too expensive.

Ooo, yeah, I saw one of those, didn't get to listen to it. It does seem like it would totally be about taste and preference.

Was really pleasurable, also wistful, taking my son to try them out. We could just hang out in this large room in a retail store in the middle of NYC for a few hours, he just playing whatever was there. Sometimes other kids would drop in too. That kind of relaxed vibe now incredibly rare.

And though I can hear and feel the music, I can't make it, never learned. Don't have time and space to do it now. Really glad he is getting it into his brain at a young age.

I believe the Nord Grand uses Kawai’s Responsive Hammer III action, which is also on the much cheaper (and excellent!) Kawai ES920 portable digital piano.

Yep - https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2986123/n...

You could go Kawai VPC-1 which is just the controller, and then connect it via MIDI to whatever you like. That way, you get a wooden action without paying for the sound engine (I've got my VCP-1 connected to a CP Reface):

https://kawaius.com/technology/wooden-key-actions/

The Reface CP is amazing isn't it!

I looked up the VPC-1 and while I probably would pay a bit more just to have speakers and a sound engine - the weight difference is interesting. It's 29.5kg for the VPC-1 vs. 17.0kg for the ES920!

The VPC-1's weight is, from what I can tell, reasonable given the action it uses. Its bizarrely named "RM3II action" is much closer to the Grand Feel action they put in their high-end digital uprights than to normal portable digital piano actions. Also, the ES920 is significantly lighter than its competitors.

yeah, it's heavy. I had it on my desk, and the desk started buckling so it's now on a stand

To be honest, the CP is really nice. There's also a hidden piano if you move the knob in between two values and then power cycle :)

To me even the very highest end digital pianos still sound digital, but they are close enough and the benefits of digital outweigh what you might sacrifice in sound for most people.

I've noticed there is also fierce debate between digital pianos that are based on sampled sounds versus modeled. I believe most Roland digitals are modeled with Fourier series, while all/most of their competitors are sampled (not sure about Nord). That said Pianoteq is a popular after market VST that will bring a very convincing top tier modeled sound to even a low end digital piano.

I’m not extremely concerned with sound quality, both because I intend to play around with lots of VSTs and because I‘ll be upgrading from a Roland RD-700SX which has served me incredibly well but which is very outdated when it comes to the sound engine!

Sounds like a good approach to me. Buy for the best action your budget will allow. With VSTs you can tailor the sound to your liking. I don't have a stake in Pianoteq, but if you aren't aware they claim that version 8 is going to be brought to iOS soon.

If you use a decent quality open back headphone, I feel like this is even more true, because the onboard sound becomes irrelevant.

I used Pianoteq on PC many years ago, and I just heard that they’re possibly coming to iOS soon. I’m looking forward to it.

For anyone price-sensitive, I highly recommend getting the cheapest 88-key hammer-action keyboard you can find and hooking it up to Pianoteq Stage rather than buying a dedicated digital piano.

Exception if you're going to travel with it. Built-in sounds save you on setup time.

The FP-90x is currently at the top of my list. The price and portability makes it much more practical for me than the bigger console pianos, even though I am very allured by some of the nicer actions with longer keysticks. I’ve played the RD-2000 enough to know I’ll enjoy the action, but I haven’t been able to find an FP-90x in a showroom yet to hear it in person. The piano sound samples I’ve listened to aren’t super impressive, but I’m not super concerned about that.

One of the things I plan to do is connect my iPad and laptop and play around with all the newer piano VSTs that I’ve missed since being away from that world for about 10 years. Sadly Kawai pianos don’t work as USB audio interfaces, so you can’t pipe the VST output back into its onboard speakers. The Roland pianos all support this feature, as do I believe most or all Yamahas.

Did the same search about a year ago, ended up ordering the CLP-775 after testing Kawai and Yamaha in stores. It _finally_ arrived last month, completely love it so far. On the somewhat cheaper side the 745 also felt great in store.

I don’t think you can go wrong with the equivalent Kawai models either. They somehow didn’t quite do it for me when I played them in store (compared to the CLPs), but couldn’t quite pin down what it was, and it was probably just a personal thing.

Anyway, definitely second FlyingRobot’s recommendation about Piano World (though seems like you’re set on that) and trying before settling on anything.

Good luck, sure you’ll end up with something you love!

The CLP line is from Yamaha ;) Just to give a +1 to the CLP-775, I also chose that one and it's a joy to play. While the CLP display looks a bit more 'dated' than the Kawai models it starts up a lot faster and response is instantly. The Kawai models I tried have some low-end mobile chip which needed some time to boot and touch screen response was slow.

The display difference you highlight is actually one of the reasons I preferred CLP 745 over Kawai options. So I went with the Yamaha.

It's really interesting. I tried Kawai and Yamaha digital pianos in the store and I didn't like the key action of the Kawai at all, nor the sound. Now my piano teacher has an “actual” (non-digital) Kawai grand and it feels just like the digital one -- not my favorite.

Kawai makes quite nice digital pianos. The CA95 that we bought about 5 years ago has real wooden hammer action and a wooden soundboard. It also reproduces the harmonics (through digital samples) that you get when you hold the sustain pedal down and play a different string (resonant frequencies can vibrate other strings that you haven't played).

I highly recommend them if you are considering a digital piano.

I wonder if that’s the predecessor to the CA99. I played that in a showroom and the Grand Feel III action is fantastic. I’m just not sure if I want to pay like 2-3x over what a portable digital piano would cost.

It is. The CA95 just has Grand Feel II action. I agree, it's one of the best digital pianos I've tried.

You can get this feature at their lowest end model of that series (CA49), though it may lack some other aspects of the resonance modeling that they reserve for higher end models. I believe almost all digitals starting at $2000 across the board have this feature, and the limiting factor that'll hold you back from hearing it all at the lower end of the price range is the audio setup that comes with the keyboard.

I remember discovering this feature when I held down all keys from A0 through E1 (without sounding them), depressed the sostenuto pedal, and then played a bunch of other keys.

That's the term I was looking for: resonance modeling. When you hear it in action you realize why most digital pianos sound so terrible. A quality digital or virtual piano models all the resonant frequencies and is a joy to listen to.

Looked at those exact brands about a month ago. Went with the Yamaha N1x hybrid. (Which means it has a conventional acoustic action with hammers and everything) so far pretty happy with it. I suggest going over to the piano world forums and doing a dive. The threads on these models are long. Also above all go see them in real life if you can.

Wow, I hope you’re having a blast with that piano, I’m jealous! I have been intensely lurking on the Piano World for a while now. :)

The higher-end Kawai models have an Android-driven touch screen. It would be great if someone would manage to jailbreak those.

I sort of prefer the ones without. The Kawai CA95 doesn't have it, but it does have a line input and USB/5 pin MIDI in/out, so you can simply place a tablet (iPad or Android) on the music stand and use a USB cable to play whatever digital synths or piano emulators you want to download.

Not having a built-in tablet means it is future proof and can work with the latest tablet, even a decade into the future.

>means it is future proof and can work with the latest tablet, even a decade into the future.

My preferred digital workstation (cubase) works (started with an atari version) great - also on my phone. My son has the same phone - does not work (slightly different processor? Different size sd card?). I can't find the forum message where someone went out and got a new tablet for the program..doesn't work. "Future proof", isn't even today proof.

It would be greater if they could make one that didn't need a minute to boot up...

Same.

I'm about to just buy that P515... I can't stand the indecision any longer.

I can vouch for the 515. I got one last year and I love it. Make sure you get the proper furniture stand for it. L515 I think.

I just went for it... Sweetwater had the whole triforce in stock.

Got the P515 + L515 + LP1.

That's exactly what I bought. Almost from Sweetwater as well, though I ended up buying from a local dealer instead.

Have fun with the new piano :)

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