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Comment by samspenc | Hacker News Reader

I've always wondered about the history of eating raw meat. My family personally doesn't eat anything raw because of the news reports we've read of people getting sick (or worse) after consuming raw meat, and we make sure to only eat fully cooked meat.

My grandparents' generation also seem more familiar with fully cooked meat, I'm wondering whether raw meat came along more recently and where it originated from. At least in the West.

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In Germany, raw pork is consumed. As a non-German, this was an extremely surprising thing to learn as in the Anglosphere it seems that consumption of raw pork is possibly a stronger taboo than consumption of dog or horse meat. I spoke to a German doctor about the issue who explained that all pigs are inspected for parasites at slaughter and it’s relatively rare - but not totally absent - for consumers to get a tapeworm.

Similarly raw chicken is consumed in Japan. [1]

The pork thing is also a bit of momentum. It was problematic to eat raw pork in the US before 1980 when Congress passed the Swine Health Protection Act. This prohibited feeding swine with trichinella-contaminated food, which was the parasite most likely to get you sick. [2] The risk these days is almost negligible and we're seeing restaurants starting to serve pork cooked pink in the middle. [3]

[1] https://matadornetwork.com/read/raw-chicken-sashimi-tokyo/

[2] https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/animalhealth/anima...

[3] https://www.seriouseats.com/case-for-raw-rare-pink-pork-food...

Undercooked pork is still a problem as it can transmit viruses such as Hepatitis E. Like chicken, you really need to know and trust your source.

Eating raw chicken is generally considered to stupid in Japan, unlike fish, horse or beef. It's shame that some restaurant provides that. Almost all people don't eat random raw chicken at home, but some eat at restaurant. Maybe alcohol drinks makes wrong risk evaluation. https://www.fukushihoken.metro.tokyo.lg.jp/shokuhin/eng/faq/...

It's not a traditional food in most area, but just stupid. Kyushu is exceptional. https://dime.jp/genre/1246382/

For what it's worth, I'm quite unlikely to eat any raw meat at home because I know it's higher risk and that I don't feel I have sufficient experience to prepare it myself - or to know where to source meat suitable for consumption raw. I trust a chef at a restaurant however because it's both their job, and if they do it wrong, they won't be in business much longer.

Yeah I wish so. The truth is that affordable restaurants aren't professional for food safety, and they continue business.

It should also be noted that the restrictions regarding pork and beef for raw consumption are very strict.

Some time ago, I prepared Beef Wellington for German friends and served it pink in the middle. They were most uncomfortable with it. I was surprised in light of the high consumption of raw pork locally.

IME other Germans like to have their burgers well well well well well, really really dead, done.

Any reason why? Someone else mentioned they also murder their steaks...

Might as well not even eat meat if you're going to incinerate it.

They might like the taste of caramelised meat.

I also like my steak well done although we also eat sushi and proschutto.

> They might like the taste of caramelised meat.

So do I, that’s why my burgers are caramelized on the outside, but that doesn’t really relate to what it looks like on the inside.

Prosciutto amico mio, grazie!

As a Brit I'm a bit skeptical about anything below a well done burger. We were taught that you should always fully cook ground beef as the mincing process can mix in pathogens from the surface of the meat. I suppose this doesn't apply if the beef is safe to make tartar with or maybe if you sear the outside of the cut you're going to mince before mincing it.

That said a number of mid-range burger chains offer rare burgers here, and in such cases I tend to go medium which typically nets results on the less overcooked end of well done anyway.

New regulations came in a few years ago to cover that. Hopefully anywhere serving rare burgers is diligent about their supply chain and kitchen processes.

https://catersafeconsultants.co.uk/new-regulations-rare-burg...

https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/media/document/f...

I would never eat a not fully cooked ground beef product from a random burger store. That's just common sense, ask your mother.

I am fairly comfortable with medium rare but I remember seeing a video of Beef Wellington recipe and I was not super comfortable with it being pink either. Since it has a pastry around it, imo pastry soaking pink juices makes it a bit harder to sell

I would estimate it’s like <10% of Germans who eat raw pork (“mett”, I wonder if the word is etymologically related to meat). In younger generations even fewer that eat it. There also may be a regional factor to it.

Mettigel is the stereotypical “70ies dinner party” dish that grosses people out.

And for regular meats, steaks, etc. people like to eat it rather well-done. If I want to get a steak done medium I order medium-rare here. People will order medium and complain to the chef if it’s actually medium. The whole spectrum of is shifted to the well done side.

I’ve been to two weddings (aged 35ish couples, all northerners, one location in Warsaw though) where they had Mettigel (and that was eaten a lot), and our local REWE (SH) prepares a few kg daily of fresh Mett, I don’t think that would be worth it for < 10%.

Also, the (skewing rather young) /r/de subreddit tends to look very favorably on Mettigel.

I would be surprised to see raw pig meat interested of raw beef in Poland. Steak tartare is a very popular dish, while raw pork is not really eaten widely.

It was a German couple, but she is of Polish descent and has family in Poland still. And I’d bet money on the broom being the one requiring the Mettigel anyway ;)

Schleswig Holstein, probably the polar opposite to baden Württemberg where I live

I work for an SME in the mechanical engineering sector and when someone from the mechanics dept. has their birthday it's not unusual for them to sponsor a few kilos of Mett, Onions and bread rolls - it's all gone by the end of the day.

Wasn't any different in the institute at university, I think we're seeing differences in our bubbles.

> a few kilos of Mett, Onions and bread rolls - it's all gone by the end of the day.

Is it good?

Be sure to top it with onions, salt and freshly ground pepper.

Edit: It's popular enough for there to be vegan Mett in Germany (also best with thinly sliced onions, salt and pepper) which comes extremely close to the pork version. [0]

[0] (German) https://www.ruegenwalder.de/produkte/veganes-muehlen-mett-fe...

Good point re root of meat. Although it appears there is a joint root to both. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mett

I can't confirm your findings, either personally or through other means. According to this poll [1] only 29% of men reported to not eat "Mett".

[1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/947071/umfrag...

In Japan I tried raw chicken. My body almost threw it up from pure conditioning from knowing what it was, but it just tasted like most other raw meats, nothing too special to warrant that response. I definitely had to gush it down with some drink. I'm from Spain and chicken has to be 100% well cooked, absolutely no exceptions. I didn't compare it until now, but actually I'd bet it'd be at a worse-level than eating cooked dog meat. We also don't eat raw pork over here, cow seems to be the only one that is acceptable with low degrees of processing or even raw, and even then it's a bit rare (pun intended :)).

Q: How was the raw chicken? A: Foul (pun intended:))

I had some raw horse meat in Japan some years ago. It was definitely an... interesting experience. Both knowing what animal it was (horses are generally considered a "pet" or treasured working animal in my culture) and knowing that it was raw and untreated. I was filmed eating it, and you can see me making a brave face.

Horse meat is a staple at sushi restaurants across Tokyo.

Why would you possibly want to eat raw chicken? It has an abysmal smell when raw and goodness me, the Spanish (and everyone else) have it right. I'd refuse raw chicken and I try pretty much everything.

Presumably for the same reason you'd want to eat any other meat raw. There's no advantage to doing it, but people do it anyway.

I ate raw liver (liver sashi) at a restaurant in Japan a few years back. Fun fact: This is now banned: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/fo...

> As a non-German, this was an extremely surprising thing to learn as in the Anglosphere it seems that consumption of raw pork is possibly a stronger taboo than consumption of dog or horse meat. I spoke to a German doctor about the issue who explained that all pigs are inspected for parasites at slaughter and it’s relatively rare - but not totally absent - for consumers to get a tapeworm.

Tapeworm isn't what we're mainly worried about, at least for the American part of the Anglosphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

> Infection is typically treated with antiparasitic medication such as albendazole or mebendazole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albendazole

> Rare but potentially serious side effects include bone marrow suppression which usually improves on discontinuing the medication

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albendazole#Side_effects

> irreversible bone marrow suppression

What.

Yes - trich, you’re right. I still feel a wave of disgust when I think of consuming raw pork. But as shown in Germany, trich is low probability if the animal is raised right - and thus the disgust is a cultural thing, not universal standard.

I've been living in Berlin for 9 years and still can't bring myself to try raw pork. We've lived in Austria before that and they don't eat raw pork either (at least neither me nor my native-born Austrian wife ever had any), so I suspect this is a northern German thing and that they probably also don't traditionally eat raw pork in southern Germany (but I don't know for sure).

Yes, Mett is more of a (north-) german thing, you wont really find that in Austria.

It has been around a while in the west. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak_tartare gives you some history on raw meat in Europe and America and some jumping off points. Raw liver was the traditional treatment for pernicious anemia.

Quality and freshness of meat is a big concern. You didn't eat raw meat in warm climates before refrigeration, or if you can't source top grade meat uncontaminated by the slaughtering process. And even then you need to inspect for parasites.

There’s also ceviche which is not exactly raw, but not heated either. Seems like the history of that dish goes way back.

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/travel/2021/05/ceviche-...

Industrial foods with a supply chain have to be extremely careful with raw meat because of the many opportunities for spoilage. If you produce the meat yourself or it is done very locally, you have the opportunity to get it very fresh with many fewer concerns.

The sweet spot for foodbourne illness is industrial scale before rigorous inspections and processes (and refrigeration). That sweet spot fits a lot of people’s grandparents growing up timeframe.

Raw animal products have been consumed forever, what and how are obviously very cultural. During food supply chain industrialization, raw meat became considerably more unsafe and plenty of people were warned.

Now we can get clean food the opportunity to eat raw meat is back and slowly gaining popularity. If you don’t grow up doing it though, there’s a good chance you’ll never be comfortable with it.

It's also that issue of globalisation where a 1 in 10000 rate of severe food poisoning per annum might means there might be an outbreak in a small village once per generation, but in a large country it would make the nightly news regularly.

In Poland, steak tartare (raw ground beef with raw egg yolk, onion, fermented cucumber, pickled mushrooms, salt and pepper) has always been massively popular.

In the 90s and 00s, raw yolk was optional due to "popularity" of salmonella. Raw beef meat was somehow still acceptable.

In Germany, "Tartar" is without egg or veggies, but more spices. Common, just like "Mett" which is raw ground pork with onions, salt and pepper.

In some areas of Germany, they add a raw egg yolk into the raw pork or beef, and add minced onions, all to be eaten on breakfast bread.

I might have to try that egg yolk thing some time ;) I usually eat the Mett out of a bowl with a spoon :D

Kogel-mogel is an example of a dessert made with raw eggs. Highly recommend, especially with a few drops of vodka or rum for tanginess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogel_mogel

I specifically meant the raw pork combination. I use raw egg yolks to make ice cream already.

I have never seen a pork version but here in Czech Republic they generally have beef steak tartare (tatarák) on topinka - bread that has been fried in oil. Often people rub garlic onto the bread before adding meat to it.

I refuse to eat any "bread" other than knedlíky when in Czechia.

Hah, not a fan?

I'm such a huge fan of knedlíky that it's the only bread-like thing I'd eat when in .cz!

Oh I was asking if you’re simply not a fan of regular CZ bread otherwise, but now I see you’re a super fan of knedlíky so it makes sense :-D

What are your feelings on meruňkové knedlíky? Slightly different from the normal ones you’d have with like svíčková but they’re quite polarising …

Fermented cucumber? Interesting, down here in Slovakia it's similar recipe only with pickled cucumber (and without mushrooms). Also some people add ketchup and a drop of worcester sauce.

I've seen the terms pickling and fermenting used interchangeably so to explain:

By fermentation of cucumbers and most non-starchy veggies, I mean lacto-fermentation with just veggies and brine (salty water). They become acidy over time as lactic acid bacteria do their magic and create a probiotic. Sauerkraut or kimchi are examples of fermented white cabbage and napa.

Pickling involves using acid such as vinegar from the beginning.

Gets confusing though as in the anglophone west at least, 'Pickles' as a noun refer to lacto fermented cucumbers e.g. kosher dills

In the anglophone West, most pickled products contain vinegar, even when they're labelled "kosher style", so it's simply the only term that many people are familiar with. In US, some aren't even aware that you can ferment veggies in brine.

Sure. My point is simply people can be referring to lacto-fermented cucumbers without realising it. The vinegar is often added for shelf stabilisation of fermented cukes is my understanding.

Yeah, I know the difference as we also ferment cucumbers, in the (Slovak) tartar recipe it's always pickled (in vinegar, dill etc).

Also (napa) kimchi is something of an outlier to your rule of just veggies and brine, because the napa cabbage does not contain a lot of starch, rice flour (starch) and in some recipes sugar is added to aid the fermentation. This is not needed for the sauerkraut/kysla kapusta/kapusta kwaszona as it naturally contains enough sugars for the fermenting bacteria to feast on. But this is just me being pedantic, sorry.

Fermented tastes way better imo. My aunt makes sun fermented cucumbers with horseradish and chilies. Yummy! She washes them with hot water two times and then puts them in brine.

Steak tartare is also very common in France

Italy, France, Switzerland - beef tartar is also popular and omni-present.

It is also very good. Coming from a country where tartar doesn't exist it took an effort to decide and try it the first time, but if you are OK with medium rare steaks, the taste is similar and the texture is that of a rare burger (the meat is chopped up into tiny pieces). Seasoning and condiments take it to the next level, so it's absolutely not like biting off a raw steak or chewing on a spoonful of ground meat :)

Maybe knowledge and techniques to make raw meat/fish safe have improved in the last decades?

The roots of sushi were in preservation of fish by fermentation.

The major food safety improvements recently were probably for industrialized production, where the issues were often creations of modernity anyway.

OTOH onboard flash freezing equipment for fisheries haven't hurt.

Do you also not go to Paris because there was a terrorist act a few years ago?

> My family personally doesn't eat anything raw because of the news reports we've read of people getting sick (or worse) after consuming raw meat, and we make sure to only eat fully cooked meat.

Surely you have access to better sources that say otherwise? You seem to be admitting that you're stuck in your ways and unwilling to try new things because of old or inaccurate news.

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