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Comment by Aeolun | Hacker News Reader

> property ownership in cities becomes increasingly out of reach

Ironically maybe least true in Tokyo, where interest rates are extremely low, and houses are still sort of affordable as long as you can adjust your expectations (e.g. no 200sqm mansions).

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Tokyo is a cheaper place to live than most people think -- in fact, it is probably cheaper than any major city in California. But most people in California would not be willing to sacrifice the standard of living they have, even in apartments. Many studio apartments in America are quite a lot larger and better equipped than a one or two-bedroom apartment in Tokyo.

How is it cheaper then? I’ve seen those shows and YouTube channels that show to rent basically a closet in Tokyo costs like $15,000 upfront. The monthly rent prices I have seen are insane.

We don't call it "key money" in the US, but you'll be paying something like 10% of your annual rent to a broker in places like NYC. In some markets the landlord pays these fees, but in other markets where demand is high, the tenant gets to pay. Combine this, your first month's rent, and a security deposit, and Tokyo doesn't seem much different than the US.

Broker’s fees, first and last month’s rent can be common in big cities. It still doesn’t match what I’ve seen in first hand accounts of renting in Tokyo. I can’t remember about how much of the renting fees are refundable or not, where in the U.S., typically only the broker’s fee is non refundable. And I certainly don’t hear anyone saying places with these policies are surprisingly cheap.

The person I responded to said that Tokyo is surprisingly cheap if you compare it to California real estate in the major cities (read as LA or San Francisco) and be willing to take major cuts on space and standard of living. That’s sort of a weird argument. Additionally comparing it to NYC doesn’t make it less weird.

Of course living in Tokyo is cheap if you throw out standard of living, ignore the initial capital required to rent, and then compare it to some of the other most insane real estate markets.

Monthly rent goes up from $200 at the low end (10 square meters or so) to $3000 at the high end (120 square meters).

You have everything in between.

There’s places (especially popular ones) that do key money (up to 3 months, which you don’t get back) and deposits (up to 3 months, which you do), but it’s starting to become less common, and you’ll always be able to find a place that doesn’t. Of course it doesn’t apply at all if you buy a house instead (for roughly the same monthly prices as renting).

My main point is that renting in Tokyo is possible regardless of your budget, where in other markets it’s just plain impossible due to the minimum price for even tiny apartments.

I have never been to Japan but I did a fair bit of international traveling for a couple of years. Going from living in a US style suburban McMansion to small apartments in Italy, Panama, Iceland, etc. was eye opening in such a positive way. US houses have tons of square footage and just so much wasted space. It adds a ton of cleaning and unnecessary maintenance and since large swaths of the US prefer ranch style houses I would rather reduce the footprint for more space for outdoors and a garden. I am genuinely happier in smaller spaces with better utilized space. In my experience you can easily halve the size of most US houses and still be very comfortable with no drop in quality of life. Am I advocating for families of 4+ to live in a 250 sq ft (25 sq meter) apartment like I did in Florence? No, but you also don't need 4000 square feet (400 sq meter) houses either. I can't imagine a scenario even with 3 kids as we're planning on to need more than 1600 sq fetter (150 sq meters) regardless of my personal financial situation and would certainly give up that space for more walkability.

I went through a similar learning trajectory.

I think one has to experience it oneself though, my friends and relatives who never left the suburbs pity me for my restricted living space, and don't believe me when I tell them live is easier with less baggage and it a walkable center of town. I suspect they think I'm rationalising an inability to afford a suburban McMansion.

I thought I never needed anything more than a 1,500 square foot house like my wife’s favorite uncle built with his own hands for his kids. Our house is 3,000 square feet and we just finished 800 square feet for the basement and with three kids it’s just not enough. Heading to my parent’s 5,000 square foot McMansion on the weekends is a real reprive.

Yeah it would be easier if we didn’t buy them so much shit. But that’s a deeply ingrained part of American culture. Who has the time to cut their kids off from friends, extended family who buys lots of trinkets for every holiday, etc? Trust me we tried to fight that battle and all we have to show for it is a two inch thick layer of dinosaurs in the living room.

I do feel this. I consider myself somewhat of a minimalist (not an extreme one but to a decent degree yes) and while we don't buy my kid a ton of toys the people around him do. I think the system we're settling into is a combination of cycling toys (he gets them for 1-3 months then we pack them into the closet) and then donate the ones that aren't his favorite. It's imperfect but it has helped stem the tide.

I don't doubt you but I just wanted to chime in with another point of anecdata that I have a family of 4 (2 kids) & we live perfectly fine in a 92m^2 (just under 1000 sq feet) apartment in Berlin. It would have been nice to have more room but I don't actually think about it that often! jsonne's idea of a modest 1600 sq ft apartment would actually be considered huge here :)

I suspect you're right that a lot of it has to do with the surrounding culture - almost nobody in Berlin lives in large homes (there are very few houses and most people live in 5-8 story high apartment buildings) & I think Germans as a habit just don't buy as much crap.

> almost nobody in Berlin lives in large homes (there are very few houses and most people live in 5-8 story high apartment buildings) & I think Germans as a habit just don't buy as much crap

I grew up with a similar culture in India, but now live in the US where every Christmas, I receive a ton of stuff I could do without.

I have a question for you – wow many gifts do Germans give each other for Christmas, and what sort? I had just kind of assumed that most western countries do these things similar to the US, but as I have found out in the past that might be an incorrect assumption.

Unless you’re invited to someone’s home to celebrate together you wouldn’t buy random friends a Christmas present. If you’re celebrating together (or if you’re relatively close family) you would buy 1 present and sometimes this would be something small/symbolic (for a child it’s more likely to be a “real” present like Lego or a board game).

But Germans generally don’t celebrate holidays in massive gatherings, I would expect my mother in law to join us, or maybe 1 other person. It would be unusual for the number of people to reach double digits.

It’s definitely cultural, but also changing culture over time. My brother and I grew up in an 1,100 square foot house, which was a standard size for a detached suburban house in America in the 1950s when it was built. But the average new American home is double that today.

I truly do not understand what you’d use that space for? Your house has more space per person than our entire house has in total (800 sqft, for 3 people). I mean, I can imagine enjoying an extra 200 sqft, but that’s about it.

It's not just about sacrificing your standard of living, it's that you won't find a smaller, well organized 2 bedrooms in US. Unless you buy a studio and remodel it yourself (which is quite expensive).

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