Mac OS Ventura Issues
morrick.me
morrick.me
This treadmill yearly release cycle of half finished OS's released not because it was a good collection of well built features ready to be released, rather released because it was time for a release, have done nothing but tarnish the OS.
It's still the best UNIX desktop, end of story. The difference between macOS and Windows though isn't as big as it was when I switched 20 years ago, and most of the gap was closed by macOS getting worse and not by Windows getting better. In the current state, given the existence and relative decent usability of WSL2, given the choice today rather than twenty years ago, I may have never switched.
The thing that really gets me is just reliability. In the early aughts when I asked macOS to do something there was no question, it would work. That was the excuse for having far less verbose output of what's happening. You didn't need it because everything worked. Now we still have total lack of output of what's happening, and things just fail silently all the time. It's become a very frustrating OS to try to love.
They’re obviously not referring to Windows…
I'm not sure where you got this from. When I used it, I didn't observe any compatibility problems.
> unlike Apple’s contemporary offerings
Apple have a history of breaking third party apps, far more than Microsoft.
FWIW Win2k (aka NT5) compatibility was great. I lived on it for a while before I completely migrated away from Windows ~2002.
For all their flaws, Microsoft took compatibility very seriously back then, I suspect the "incompatibility" part is a bit overblown and didn't affect as many users as we might perceive..
This is confusing to read, because windows after 7 had been an astronomical nose dive compared to anything OSX is doing wrong.
"I probably mentioned this a few times on social media, but the simple answer is that, apart from my 2017 iMac, none of my current main machines is supported by Ventura. And that iMac is my High Sierra machine, which I’m not going to update to run experiments or to study Ventura’s UI. What I’ve seen on other people’s Macs or borrowed Macs has been enough to make me say, No thanks."
Thats fine but, what is the point? It's basically speculation. He doesn't know first hand if theres any issues he'd personally experience in the FIVE releases since then. He's basically just reading other blogs and saying 'yes it is bad'
It's like someone who hasn't used Windows since 8 saying it still sucks.
First you say:
> He hasn't used a new version since High Sierra
Then you quote him saying:
> What I’ve seen on other people’s Macs or borrowed Macs has been enough
Which means he has used newer versions, and you cited him saying so.
My own iMac runs 10.14 and what I've seen of each newer version puts me off more and more, so I too have a machine that could run at least macOS 12, but it doesn't. Because I've tried friends' machines, and tried each version in Apple shops and so on, and I don't like what I see.
Is this somehow not enough for you? That we have to install it and personally use it day-to-day in order to qualify our opinion enough?
I mean, I've been using Macs since System 7 came out. I know my way around Macs. That means it doesn't take me long to try one and see if I like it.
In fact, this week, I spent half an hour trying out macOS 13 on some M1 machines in an Apple reseller, and I didn't like it at all. Its menu bar uses a different font, is a different size, Settings has been completely revamped -- and I don't use iPhones for reasons: I've had 3 of them, and I prefer Android -- so the last thing I want is my Mac to be more iOS like.
I found this blog post really resonated with me, but your comment reads to me like you feel we haven't given it a fair enough crack of the whip and our opinions are thus invalid.
Is that wrong?
What he's saying is that he's tried later versions of the same OS and he doesn't like them.
I've tried the later versions, too. I don't like them either. As such, I think his assessment is sound.
Additionally, this piece does not stand alone. He has written about this extensively before, in January 2021:
https://morrick.me/archives/9150
And then revisiting it a month later after it received a lot of comment and attention:
https://morrick.me/archives/9220
He went into great depth in those posts. He knows this subject area exceptionally well. The first one of them, particularly, went viral and TBH I'd expect you to have known that, and to have read those earlier posts, before you start passing judgement. Otherwise you look ill-informed and ignorant, and to be judging on that basis of a lack of understanding.
In addition I'd add that I started using Mac OS X with 10.0, and on unsupported old Macs because new ones were too expensive for me to afford back then, so I hung out in various fora for people running unsupported kit.
(P.S. Don't "lad" me. I've been doing this stuff for more than a third of a century, and that's professionally, after nearly a decade as a hobbyist.)
I'm still in those fora and their modern continuations.
When Riccardo said that he felt that the experience had degraded since "Snow Leopard", he is merely expressing a widely-held view. Many old OS X hands feel that from 10.0 to 10.6 it got better and better, and since then, it's deteriorated and it's still doing so.
In other words, this is not a controversial or contrarian view.
Universal Control is one of the best features that has been added in a very long time.
The weight of commenters here is clearly not in the favor of my experience!
Maybe that's because I don't notice things? Or I don't use many of Mac apps, like Mail / Finder / Mission Control / etc (thanks to Alacritty + VSCode + Contexts + Amethyst)?
But I have to use Windows & Linux machines for other things, and I vastly prefer using a Mac.
Combined with a pretty consistent decades old dotfile repo, good apps like Obsidian, vscode, and the crap corporate makes me use… I could really do fine with a Linux machine, but I always feel like the windowing envs are one “ctrl+alt+backspace” from me waking up in 1997’s days slackware and video res/driver hell.
I'm not sure of the cause, but I've seen Mission Control and the Dock randomly freeze/crash in some weird state and make the system completely unusable, or for some memory leak (I think) to just randomly cause the system to slow to a crawl even with all Apps killed and necessitate restarts much more often than reasonably necessary. In the past I've gone months between restarts, but now I can't go more than a week or so.
What I'd really like to see is a slower operating system development cycle. There's no reason that we need brand new operating systems every year. There should be a minimum 2 full years between releases, taking the time to plan out the UI really well and create rock-solid features and kill almost all bugs. I used to be so excited for new MacOS versions and now I've come to dread them.
That said, I'd still rather deal with Mac's relatively minor problems than the total shitstorm that my Windows box always is.
Whether MacOS is more or less buggy on any given release seems to have everything to do with what collection of hardware and software you're running, in my experience, but I suppose if your opinion is based on the entire internet, every day can only bring increased bugginess forever.
Posted from a MacOS Ventura 13.1 box without any issues I can think off right away. Certainly none of the issues mentioned in the article. No idea why.
the icon of the volume being unmounted dissapearing too soon (thus giving the impression it's already safe to remove the device) is very real and dangerous.
the dumbing down to ios/ipad level is also quite clear i think. the preferences did not need an overhaul. perhaps it was a gesture towards microsoft windows' preferences "experience" living in this weird limbo, and apple saying we can do a full rewrite in one major release cycle. who knows.
the ventura update itself did not finish unattended, i had to login manually on both my m1's for the installer to get into the next phase.
where macos is right now, is where the mac hw was 2 years ago. management having heir hands on their ears singing lalala and ignoring what people want. perhaps they have to run it totally in the ground before improving.
i had a policy of not upgrading to .0 releases, but i am revising it to install only the last point release of the previous major release after the next major release is out.
I don't connect my iPhone except to charge it, so I have no idea what that experience is like. Perhaps it is a disgrace. Then again, Apple made iPhone completely independent from Macs quite a few years ago now, so I have no idea why one would connect one in 2022 on MacOS Ventura.
I haven't observed icons disappearing prematurely when ejecting volumes, although that's something I do rarely.
The Ventura update itself finished unattended on both my M1 Mac mini and my M1 Pro MacBook, so that one doesn't seem to be a universal issue.
Again, what few specifics are mentioned are clearly not universal, and I can't really judge vague statements at all. If you feel it's dumbed down, who can argue? If you feel it's being run into the ground, who can argue?
Ventura has worked fine for me. The betas worked fine. I haven't thought much about macOS in a long time. I install it, and then mostly ignore it while I work.
Rebooting sometimes helps, actually shutting down and then starting up again fixes it every time
Like a 5-year old kid, this ThinkPad randomly decides that it doesn't want to go to sleep. Unplugging, closing the lid, or manually selecting it from the start menu: it simply won't do it. It does turn off the display, but the power light stays on, and the fans keep running. What am I supposed to do with a hot, actively cooled notebook that won't turn off, when I want to put it into a bag because I have to go somewhere? And fun fact: This bug has persisted for years. It's a portable computer that actively refuses to be transported.
The listed bugs involve the finder and networked drives - functionality used by a particular demographic of technically savvy users. It's not exactly that I'm trying to defend Apple - more that I am suspicious that what is happening is that Apple is still focusing on consumer experience, but I (we) are moving out of the "eye" of that experience. The generations younger than me interact with computers in very different ways than I did - and I think Apple's shift in focus reflects that.
FWIW I still fine the "external display" story easier on macs than windows (despite, it seems, Apple's best efforts).
I'm hoping within a few years, Apple will reveal the coreOS release (no Intel support) that unifies everything from Apple Watch all the way to Mac Pro.
Just to be clarify, I am not talking about simplified iPhone interface on Mac but a new kernel (maybe linux derived?), unified tech stack (radio(bluetooth/wifi), APFS, Swift-only apps, etc) that's the same across all devices. This would allow them to simplify the whole process, work once and make it work right everywhere once.
I don’t notice as many bugs as others, but UI for sure is an issue.
Here’s an interest blog post from a former Apple UI employee.
https://www.corbinstreehouse.com/blog/2021/10/macos-12-monte...
We figured out a workaround in the Docker issue queue but due to apathy in both camps around solving actual problems instead of doing yet another UI refresh it's just not worth sending anything through Feedback Assistant or trying to get the Docker folks to look into it.
Otherwise I see some UI fixes from the last release, but now there are some new bugs! It really is just totally sloppy over there, I wish they would stop annual releases.
Most of them, sure, but there is often a several minute session of moving things to where they're supposed to be.
Only me?
I’d also recommend using one of the hot key apps to set window positions since it makes that transition a lot faster.
I'll look into using different cables.
Genuine question - is that really true?
It's an important clarification for anyone wishing to upgrade to a newer machine but wants to avoid being stuck with Ventura until if/when it's sorted out.
Whereas if I have to use a Windows machine I end up fighting the OS because I have to grok WSL running a separete OS, multiple duplicated system controls from various decades of Windows, and ads everywhere.
MacOS still isn't perfect, and maybe it has slightly less polish than it did some years ago, but it's atleast kept pace with competition feature-wise without becoming as aggravating to use as others.
In all versions prior to 13 when you move a window to the edge of the screen or against another app window it would "stick" just a bit. You could push past it if you wish but it is a nice way to align windows neatly without overlapping or going off screen.
In 13 you can get it to do that but it seems far less "sticky" than it used to be. I noticed it immediately and hated it.
Does anyone here know if this is a bug (it is still present in 13.1) or a design choice going forward?
If you wanted to avoid the window sticking in the past you could hold the option key while you dragged the window, making it less sticky seems kind of strange.
The alternative would seem to be stop any and all development, as the optimal behavior has been reached in every aspect, which I don't think anybody could credibly argue.
To me they made the sticky window feature worse. It is still there but it is more finickity to use. I don't want to have to slow down and gently bump the window against another in the hope it works.
They're still "sticky" in the literal sense that the feature is still there that I agree on :)
In other words my complaint is that while sticky windows are still a feature it requires more effort to get it to work which makes the feature less useful to me.
Ideally I would like to see an option where the user can set the sensitivity for the "stickiness". Probably not via a user facing option in the Settings app but a global 'defaults' command line tweak would be nice.
The premise that paying the Apple premium gives you a better system doesn't seem to hold anymore. Back in the Steve's day, he would have called "shit" on such work and berated the staff for daring to think of releasing. Perhaps, these days the accountants and marketing staff are calling the shots.
In Finder, you can show the "path bar" via Cmd-Opt-P (or View > Show Path Bar), which will show the path of selected files in any Finder window, including searches: https://i.imgur.com/jXWYEnQ.png
One final tip: Cmd-Opt-C in Finder will copy the pathname of a selected file. Sadly this does not work in file select sheets.
Radio interference
Why does Apple feel the need to release more and more features at the OS level each year when their customers are only paying for the hardware, not the software?
It is a strange thing: the hardware has improved (keyboard, processor) as the software has decayed.
Asahi Linux is my exit strategy at this point.
Ventura Issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34155875 - Dec 2022 (128 comments)
1. Holding the "keyboard close" button to select an option from the context menu occasionally triggers the "Quick Note" gesture.
1a. Sometimes that options menu closes without even triggering the quick note gesture
1b. Similarly that button is overloaded to move the split/undocked keyboard, but it doesn't always recognize whether you are trying to move the keyboard or open the menu.
2. If you press in the middle of the Safari address bar it will usually be misrecognized as hitting the dropdown for the window management options.
3. If you pull out and subsequently dock the pencil often I find the pencil context menu refuses to go away. You have to engage in the following ritual: (1) open the mini keyboard from the tray, (2) hide the keyboard, (3) minimize the tray, (4) tap some text input before it will finally realize you're not using the Apple pencil anymore. (Which it knows you can't possibly be holding, because it's _charging it._)
4. If video scrubbing controls are at the bottom of the screen (as they typically are) then trying to use them will almost always result in entering the dock/app-switching routine.
4a. Similarly I've found in Safari that it is obstinate that any swipe near the edges of the screen is a "back/forward" gesture, and definitely not you trying to hit the damn slider right under your fingertip. (This largely seems to be a Safari issue, sliders elsewhere in the OS seem fine; but this is a big problem considering every browser is just clothes-over-Safari.)
5. Some apps behave very strangely with the different keyboard modes. Discord seems to be a prime offender. For example: the relatively large undocked/split keyboard behaves as an overlay, obscuring what is beneath it. However the very small floating keyboard, _literally designed to be an unobtrusive overlay_, will have Discord create whitespace for it. (Try putting the floating keyboard in the top corner and you'll end up with ~one line of message history.)
6. When Discord is in "slide over" mode, and the keyboard is docked, hitting their emoji picker will bring it up docked to the bottom left corner. However instead of being the full width of the screen/keyboard it will instead be the width of the slide-over window. (!?!)
7. Similarly I've had it where Spotify after being converted from a "slide-over" window to a full-screen app will have the player controls misaligned and the play/skip buttons will be completely obscured. (Couldn't seem to fix this without a restart of the app.)
8. I'm sure this is by design, but the iOS 16 duplicate image detection doesn't work if [one of] the duplicates are tagged with the Hidden flag. I would very much like to save space even if it means an extra button press hidden in a menu to "reveal hidden duplicates" or something like that. (Since the processing is allegedly on-device I don't really mind it going through my "hidden" photos, considering they're just rows in a SQLite DB w/ a boolean field set to true.)
9. Apple Pencil w/ Scribble turned on it's a total crapshoot if you're going to make a selection or type some random "i", "'", ";", etc.
10. If other media is playing, or was playing recently, the keyboard "clacky" sounds often play louder than their usual volume. However it's not consistently louder: it's like it oscillates between whatever the keyboard volume is vs. whatever your media volume is.
I'm sure I remember my older iDevices with rose-colored glasses, but the lack of refinement in this current UX is mildly infuriating at times. I mean you've got to get the basics right, and I don't know what's more fundamental than keyboards and window management. That's literally the primary input/output of your OS. I feel like if Steve Jobs ran into even a fraction of this list he would've thrown the damn iPad like a frisbee. _I don't have the luxury of doing that because it's far too expensive._
I miss real OSX. I miss Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion.
Where are the no new features upgrades? I don’t need new lipstick on the pig every year. I need it to work without regressions.
Also I want to set fire to the settings screen in Ventura. It’s bad. It’s just bad. Someone did a bad job.
New OSX versions used to be a good thing. Now I just dread them for fear of what they’ll break just for an excuse to make the computer that I “own” a paperweight after a fixed time period.
I actually tried this 6 months ago and in no way found the Linux experience better than macOS even though I would on principle prefer living with an open source OS (I also don’t actually notice a lot of issues on macOS). Of course that was still pretty early for Linux on M1 so I’ll probably try it again in the future.
Not trying to be a troll or sarcastic, but there's really no way to get that sort of feedback to a company of Apple's size. Or, at least, there's really no way for individuals or small groups to get any impactful feedback to them.
I had a set of AirPods. I bought the AppleCare - which I rarely do. In a 2 year period I had 5 'fixes'. 5 replacements. In 2 years. PERHAPS having those sorts of metrics for them to review - an actual cost to their bottom line - wakes someone up to address quality issues. But... what do you do about the decline and usability in a settings panel? Stop using the settings panel? That'll show 'em! :/
On the iPad it's arguably useful but that's mainly because it doesn't have real windows.
I also felt that every year Apple was sawing the legs off my chair by changing or removing features I used. At least now with KDE I have choice.
Once I learned to stop caring about OSX updates, they make pretty much 0 difference to my life.
Or do you mean that the settings screen is used by Apple to enable tracking/stalking its users? Do you mind clarifying?
This is one area where free software really shines. I recently put aside a simple desktop I had put together myself from parts that I had used for nearly 20 years. Updated from one OS version to the next with no issues, no new features forced on me, no surprises. Things only changed when I decided to change them.
Only reason I finally ditched it a year or so ago is that technology has moved on and I want to try something new.
Much better than Windows file explorer.
I just want a file explorer that actually works.
Why not just have a hidden 'power user' toggle in the OS to enable these things?
But in all seriousness, disagree.
Latest Windows Explorer release slaps Finder with a 3 foot stick.
PowerToys adds command-space, which is a start. Any QuickLook apps on Win10? (Does Win11 have this?)
The file system supports 260+... the files are there. Just can't interact with them graphically.
But yeah, quick preview, as nice as it is, was never a Windows thing, and i doubt it will ever be, as I assume Apple has some software parents for it as they have for several basic UX and software features.
> The breadcrumb is called Path Bar in Finder, and you can enable it in the View menu, with the Enable Path Bar menu item (Alt+Command+P).
> The Path Bar is displayed on the bottom of the Finder window, and you have to double-click onto the folder names to navigate to the desired folder.
> https://gyorgybalassy.wordpress.com/2019/05/27/mac-tips-for-...
I spend most of my time on my Air running Ventura, and love it, but the Windows file explorer on my Windows 11 machine is way better. Though obviously opinions vary.
1) Cmd + Up
2) View > Show Path Bar
Finder has some nice features compared to Explorer but the actual quality of its coding seems to be terrible for what is probably the most important piece of userspace software on one of the 2 main commercial desktop OSs in existence.
I am pretty sure these things are 'normal' - they are reported around the internet. Just look at the article - bugs in Finder are hardly unprecedented.
Sometimes you can't do better than O[n], in which case you sweat the details of that inner loop very hard. Finder doesn't sweat much of anything.
Any time I have to do something to a few thousand files or more I switch to the Terminal and use the command line because Unix [mostly] knows how to deal with large numbers of files efficiently.
I haven’t even found any free/OSS archive utilities that really implement this as effectively as Windows out of the box. All you can really do with an archive in MacOS is... decompress it to the current folder. Really?
You can drill into zip files using QuickLook (i.e. by hitting space bar) with this QLGenerator:
It isn't free, but it's a great orthodox-style file manager (with optional Norton Commander keys) with many other features.