Apple only lets me choose a default search engine from its pre-approved list | Hacker News Reader

Apple only lets me choose a default search engine from its pre-approved list

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63 pointschatmasta83 comments

The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms.

Edit: folks downvoting my comment are deluding themselves. Apple is hostile towards freedom. It is only by regulation and laws that we're able to gain any, and they actively lobby against those.

I ordered my GNU Hurd-powered mobile device right before Christmas, it supposed to ship any day now. /s

Good on you. /s

What about de-googled Android?

was "and-o-rid" unintentional?

Yes, it was a typo

A freudian slip.

I must admit that you made me chuckle, but the truth is that for the last 15 years I've been using Neo FreeRunner, Nokia N900 and then Librem 5 as my phones and couldn't be happier.

It's a relatively low effort comment, but I'm not actually sure why you're being downvoted for this.

If you value being able to use your device in whatever way you please then I'd agree it's kinda silly to use an iOS device. If you're the kind of person who's going to want to use obscure search engines or side load apps then maybe an iPhone just isn't for you.

I suppose the pushback would that "freedom" comes at the cost of usability so from a practical standpoint it makes sense that there is some limitations.

Is there some special kind of user on HN that has downvote buttons, or am I the special kind of user on HN that only has upvote buttons?

I'm seeing them right now. It seems to be rate limited based on your karma and how downvote-happy you are.

I thought they disappeared sometimes. I thought it was if you commented in a thread?

You can't downvote replies to your comments.

I feel like downvoting also goes away after a comment has reached an age threshold, although I don't know what that threshold is.

You get down vote permission after some amount of points iirc

You will be able to downvote after your karma goes above 500.

Wahey! Only 10 to go!

14 more, nice.

Every HN user starts without the downvote button. It's only after your own comments get upvoted enough times that the downvote button appears for you (and then you start having to be really careful when aiming for the upvote button, and checking every time that, after clicking the arrow, the link next to the timestamp reads "unvote" and not "undown").

Then you'd be excluding yourself from every platform. We obviously need serious regulation to these massive dystopic tech monopolies.

More or less. But until people are more aware of this, nothing will happen.

> The solution is to stop using platforms that are so actively hostile towards people's freedoms.

So drastic - The actual solution is to use a Safari extension or use another ios browser (Firefox)

Isn't that the same approach?

So how would you code this feature so it works with any search engine off the bat and how would the team know this might be a priority to develop next if you haven’t filed a radar?

This feature has been solved on other browser.

I’m more interested in my actual question. If there is some sort of interoperable API or something, not engaging with hostile glib one liners.

A workaround approach - disregarding any existing standards - would be to simply give the user a random, unique string to search for and then try to detect that string in the URL (typically as a query parameter) - then the browser just has to replace that string with the user's actual search query in subsequent searches.

This is probably how Firefox works, because I get suggested a new search engine every time I search on a new site.

Firefox uses OpenSearch. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-en...

Chrome uses HTML5 search inputs: https://martin-thoma.com/search-engine-autodiscovery/

Here's a few options at different places in the spectrum for ease of UX vs. work required by the search engine:

Make search engines (appearing in that list) installable as apps.

Have search engine websites include some metadata about the API. When this metadata block is present, add a "make this site the default search engine" to the Safari menu.

Allow the user to enter an arbitrary URL with some substitutions.

Thanks good suggestions. I think both your last options would work. Either one could be passed through automatically with a deep link from their website (either the search engine base url or your special url in the last point)

The approach seems to be shifting from #2 (which winds up being an invasive prompt in some cases which is separate from management) to #1 in the form of Web Extensions.

Safari however does not currently support new search engines via web extension metadata.

Use the OpenSearch specification [0]. Most search engines and even websites support it. It’s how, for example, you can search YouTube directly in the FF address bar.

[0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch

Exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks

OpenSearch is a bit of a confusing mess, because it describes both search descriptions for a site as well as for a site to ask to be a global search engine (aka OpenSearch plugins)

Interestingly, Safari at least used to support the first - if you type something into the bar on a site which advertises opensearch, those results will be incorporated into the displayed list.

For the global behavior, the guidance seems to have shifted from opensearch plugins to web extensions. Safari does not seem to support any of the search engine metadata fields currently.

I'd implement an existing widely supported standard: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/OpenSearch

Yeah this kind of thing is very interesting, it does look like safari supports it.

Apple used to offer this but took it away years ago.

That's because Apple knows what's good for you.

No one outside top Apple & Google brass knows exactly how much Apple's protection racket with Google costs the latter, but estimates are $13B a year, which would be a healthy chunk of either's profits.

Yes. So stop using apple.

The following is a mitigation, not a solution.

You can pick a different search engine in, and add search engines to, Firefox mobile on iOS. The picker pictured in TFA is only for mobile Safari.

It uses the same renderer as Safari on iOS, but the search engine is not part of that. I imagine that mobile chrome (I don't use it) can do the same.

I made a request to DDG a few months ago to add a !kagi bang command.

Still haven’t heard from them but it’s worth a try.

https://duckduckgo.com/newbang

Adding other browsers to DDG bangs would somewhat solve the problem, at least for me with Kagi.

Yeah, I use these bangs too, but it also means that every query is sent to 2x search engines - DDG and the destination search.

There is a Safari extension called xSearch [0] which implements bangs client side, but I uninstalled it because I noticed weird TLS errors on a few sites while it was running, and I'm generally uncomfortable with the level of access required for it to function.

[0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206...

FYI, Kagi has an app that provides an extension that takes over the DDG domain (and maybe other default search engine domains) to redirect searches to Kagi. This still leaks the query to the original search engine, but it's better than nothing.

https://www.googlewatchblog.de/wp-content/uploads/tim-cook-s...

Try "Custom Search Engine Extension for Safari" from the App Store.

Probably they don’t do that because the experience would be confusing for 98% of users. Is there some search engine people actually use not in that list?

Yes. I use kagi.com, and it is incredibly annoying to be redirected to *DuckDuckGo when I use the “search on the web” feature.

*IMO DDG is the only viable alternative to google in the apple search selection list

There’s a Kagi safari extension that will redirect any searches to Kagi. I still set my default to DDG because I think the extension intercepts after the request has been sent.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/kagi-search-for-safari/id16077...

There is also a browser built by the Kagi team for iOS. Well, as much of a browser as you can get on iOS.

I tried it when it was initially in beta but haven’t tried it again. I should give it another spin.

But then when I want to do another search I have to disable this extension otherwise it still redirects

You mean on a Kagi result page? I just type the new query into the search bar on the Kagi page instead. Agreed it’s not ideal.

I use this extension, but I also use Firefox. So, this doesn't work for me, unfortunately. :(

I recently began using Kagi and it is a pain getting the same experience. They do have an extension but it’s a back at best.

I'm pretty sure that every non-Google, non-Bing search engine on this list (Yahoo, DuckDuckGo and Ecosia) is actually powered by Bing. So really Apple is restricting me to two search engines: Google and Bing.

A relatively very popular one that isn't on the list in the screenshot, and that the linked Tweet even calls out, is Brave.

Brave has an iOS app. Are there people who have an iPhone and want to use brave as a search engine but don't want to use brave's browser app?

Yes - again, the linked Tweet that this HN thread is about is literally someone asking for that.

I usually search for something by pulling down on the Home Screen and searching from there; it searches multiple types of thing for me automatically (files, photos, notes, web, etc) and is very convenient for me.

I would like to set kagi as the iOS search engine so that it redirects queries directly to kagi in my default browser, rather than routing it through another search engine that a plug-in redirects to kagi for me.

I imagine the same basic request is what brave users are looking for. It’s a minor irritation but seems like it should be trivially solvable as an outside observer.

> Probably they don’t do that because the experience would be confusing for 98% of users.

Classic Apple deflection.

I don’t know what your interests are, but an analogy I would propose is if your car had a menu that let you set the brake balance and fuel mixture. I know what those things are because I’m a fan of f1 racing. But even I wouldn’t care past a “huh that’s cool”

Yes, most people wouldn’t care or even understand that, and same with their search engine. It would confuse them if they got to it. And it isn’t worth keeping it open ended just to please the 1% of nerds, most of which would tinker once and move on.

So then it is good to tell non-tech people “you can trust the list”

I for one much prefer the apple approach for mainstream users. It gives them a solid set of defaults.

If there’s a search engine that’s better than what’s on that list, then we know how to add it and it will make it to the list eventually.

Weird, because it's an option in Microsoft Edge, Google Chrome, Firefox on the desktop, as well as on mobile.

They (Safari on iOS) account for 48.6% of the mobile browser market (with Chrome taking 45.11%) according to statcounter. On the desktop, they drop to 15.5% with Chrome taking the lion's share at 61.79%.

It's such a relatively common feature of all but one browser. When you add a search engine, most of the time, it's enough to add in the "%s" string for your search keyword.. and figure out where it goes. For example, with Google it is www.google.com/search?q=%s.

> I for one much prefer the apple approach for mainstream users. It gives them a solid set of defaults.

Such a weird way to think. Is your view of society such that people are just dumb and need to be coddled?

Can’t speak for the other guy but my view is that the phone isn’t my primary computing device and I don’t really want to tinker with it that much.

Pretty soon, your primary device will be made of the same "stuffs" your phone is. Will you care then? Or will it be too late?

Maybe it will, but then again, I've been hearing this warning for around ten years already. What would I do differently anyway? Buy an Android phone with its own restrictions?

How about Librem 5 smartphone?

I had to look it up. Seems I fork over two grand, wait a year to even get it, and then instead of having any of the apps I want to use I get desktop Linux apps on a touchscreen. Where do I sign?

> Seems I fork over two grand, wait a year to even get it

You are mixing Librem 5 USA ($2000, shipped within 10 days) and Librem 5 ($1300, long queue due to missing CPUs).

> and then instead of having any of the apps I want

All apps I want are there. My daily driver now. Which ones are you missing? Android apps can also work with Waydroid.

Apart from that, there is Pinephone, slower and cheaper.

I never said they’re dumb. I said they don’t care. Most people don’t care about these things.

I am able to see the 50 things I can do every single day without having to think too hard and I am grateful for that.

I don’t care to know why the elevator I’m riding in is safe. I just care that it is. I don’t want to even have the option of tuning the torque on the elevator motor. Or to tune the right temperature on my cappuccino machine to ensure optimal frothing or whatever. Or to care that 103.5 FM in the radio isn’t exactly in the 103.50000000 MHz. I’m glad that someone made the choice for me so I can enjoy the end product and get on with my life.

How does this apply to being able to choose your own default search engine?

I think it has to do with the use case of being able to add a new search engine that isn’t in the list is in the realm of extremely obscure features, so it isn’t obvious that leaving it out is actually hurting consumers.

I’m not trying to be some kind of Apple apologist.

My point is simply that this is an obscure setting and there might be decent reason and more downsides to not add it, rather than some nefarious anti-consumer move.

Imagine if everyone could only do what 98% of users do for everything. Only the most popular websites, apps, books, restaurants, etc.

The world would be a boring place.

(And you wouldn’t be allowed to visit HN)

I don't think it would be confusing if Apple implemented it like Firefox does: when I'm on a site with an OpenSearch specification, give me the option to add it to my list of available search engines. Then when I'm typing in the omnibar, "Search XYZ.com for <my query>" would be an option I could tap, and similarly it would be an option available for me to choose as a default search engine in Settings.app.

Apple already takes up a bunch of space in the URL bar with that stupid microphone icon for dictation that I've never used. Maybe they could put the button there.

In Chrome for Android, the procedure is the following:

- Open any search page that follows the spec

- Search for anything (not always necessary)

- Open settings > search

- Select your search engine from the "recently visited" list

In Firefox you need to add a custom URL, which 99% of users won't know what to do with so they'll just ignore it. This allows for more customisation but it's also a higher bar to clear.

I don't think either implementations would drive away users. Worst case scenario, the procedure is too complicated for those using a popular custom search engine and Apple needs to make their default search provider list bigger.

Absolutely. Kagi, brave are two popular ones if the top of my head.

That's safari settings. You can run another browser.

In my experience Safari is the best browser on iOS, because it is the only one that supports extensions.

It also has the best UI/UX and speed of any browser on iOS, but that’s subjective.

I'm a big apple user and recognize this is messed up. If you are going to make your browser default and shipped with the phone, and not allow other rendering engines in your appstore, you better be bending over backwards to make sure stuff like this is open. This is already a solved problem and I expect Apple to already have regular features like this baked in.

Use the Brave browser then. It's on the App Store.

If you're the type of person who wants to add other search engines and trigger them via URL parameters, you're the type of person who knows that Apple's system is a walled garden. At this point, it often doesn't feel like people are asking "Hey, could you improve this?" and more like the same complaint over and over again with the complaint being "Apple is still Apple and instead of buying another thing after Apple being exactly like this, I complain about the thing I bought being the exact thing I bought".

I think the anticompetitive aspect here is different. Suppose you're some amazing new search engine startup with rapid promotion through word-of-mouth. Normally, all you'd have to do would be to present some convenient links (or walkthroughs) how your search engine could be added as the default search engine.

Except for iPhones, there is suddenly a gatekeeper. If you don't convince Apple to add you to the list, it won't matter how good you are or how much people want to make you the default engine, as long as Apple says no, they can't.

I get that and I share this sentiment 100%. However, there are various other browsers on the App Store including the one from Brave. I guess I don't see this as someone wanting their favorite search engine to be available in Safari. I see it as chapter #799 of the old story of "Let's talk about Apple making decisions for the user while others allow me to make decisions myself".

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