Some people have been completely isolated in their homes for 8 days. I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.
Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow.
Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doesn't make sense unless they've never had heavy winters before.
The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say why not firewood, but I'd guess expense and convenience. Aha, this other article mentions a firewood shortage, but doesn't say details:
> In homes heated by firewood, there is another battle. Yellow Hair says there is a firewood shortage happening on the reservation, but communities are coming together to help one another. “Lending that helping hand, when they can and where they can,” said Yellow Hair. Keeping people warm is an issue across much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, with a firewood shortage and propane trucks jelling up from the cold.
—https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenome...
And here's an article about life in Pine Ridge generally:
> Among the most impoverished of these reservations, Pine Ridge is plagued by an 80 to 90 percent unemployment rate with a median individual income of $4,000 a year, according to the Re-Member nonprofit organisation’s 2007 statistics.
— https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pin...
I was able to work with members of the Ute and Navajo tribes in Four Corners years ago when our company worked on reservation lands and was required to hire a percentage of local laborers. Those guys worked as hard as the rest of us out in the July sun down in the hot canyons. They laughed at and with each other poking jibes at each other since their tribes were traditionally not allies. It was all good-natured ribbing and I'm sure they knew each other or of each other before working with us. They worked the length of our contract in the area and had few issues with attendance or effort.
Local whites always talked down about the natives but I found them to be as dependable as Mexican and central American immigrants (legal or otherwise) that I worked with in Texas and other states. These people needed jobs and were willing to work to keep a job and the quality of their efforts was on par or better than the quality of local labor.
In contrast, our company cycled through local non-native help. Many of those people appeared and worked long enough to earn a paycheck and then disappeared. Some even played the employment game where a group of friends hired out to each of the three non-local companies and on any given day your rolls would show all of them working with one of your crews, some of them with one of your crews, or none of them with your crews that day. They went where they thought the best pay opportunity of the day would be and had a friend sign them in where they were expected to be so they could earn a check there too. This went on for weeks until one of our crews had a problem in the field and in the process of sorting it out and looking for a scapegoat, they went through the rolls of potential crew members who should have had responsibility and discovered that several people listed as being present and working did not show up at all.
Since the three companies were in the same business and everyone knew everyone else our party manager had a talk with the other guys and they compared employee rolls and discovered all the overlap and the system of sign-ins. All of those people were fired immediately when they showed up for their next day's work. These were ordinary white guys who all lived in that area.
Moving is very expensive. Then how can they afford rent in a more expensive area? How will they find jobs?
Once society has deemed you too poor to be useful, it is hard to escape that designation even if you make it out.
Length of history + history of repayment.
She goes back into debt right after.
In her youth, she didn't make much. She has since become a skilled professional though and now makes a very good salary.
She is still in debt.
I have friends who make mind boggling amounts of money and also have amazing debt. As they have made more their debt has gotten worse, not better.
A credit score says whether or not you have paid back your debts. Making more money does not fix the broken behavior - it often times makes it worse.
Biden, when he was VP under Obama, commuted back and forth to Delaware on the weekends still.
So, though I'd been responsible for a long time, it didn't count like it would have if I'd engaged in a lot more borrowing. Problem was, I valued being debt-free sooner for the flexibility it gave me.
After all, look at the etymology of mortgage - mort gage (old French), literally "death pledge". Thanks, but I prefer life without that kind of constraint.
And if one is born into generational poverty, in a place highly dependent on government intervention, its probably really hard to access the mindset and opportunities for education and entrepreneurial examples that could start to break the poverty trend.
Credit scores are intentionally a blend of elements. Generally the advice is to make one or two small credit purchases a month and pay them back - just enough to show consistent mild activity. Some people like using gas for this since credit cards are more fraud protected, but that may or may not be a "small purchase" for you.
When we talk about poverty, we want to seperate out the individual case (Bob is broke) from the group case (Mary's tribe is broke.) Fixing Bob's problems looks very different from fixing the tribes problems. (That doesn't mean the root problem is unrelated.)
Financial literacy education is unfortunately overrun with scams.
How is it any different where you came from? Once you become a teenager the gangs and predatory "adults" start closing in on you to either join/serve or be an outsider they abuse for amusement.
I say this from similar situation as you but I was 16. Much easier since I could legally work in restaurants (which is what I did). I have no idea how you would make it without the ability to work. I'm not saying that I want anyone to go through what I or you did. However it was blindingly clear to me even as a child that staying was equal to dying. I don't see how these people stay in these places having been there myself.
Someone posted the average income at pine ridge is <$4k. You can work for minimum wage for almost a 400% increase in income by leaving.
Mexico. This people needs the wisdom of a Mexican coacher.
Thriving despite racism, lack of money and no friends in town, but with a golden, fully legal document of citizenship granting free pass, and speaking the same language as everybody else?. Yep, Challenge accepted
I'm guessing however that the reservation was put in the most disadvantaged place for doing such traditional activities. A prarie is useless without it's bison. And bison are probably a protected species.
Many would call that poverty or subsistence but many long for it. It may be romanticised but it seems like the essence of life. Heimo Korth (?) In Alaska been doing it for 40 odd years.
People’s biggest problems are mostly not how to pass a FAANG interview.
According to the article some of the areas are getting 30 inches of snow and ice!
With drifts easily doubling that, I could see how 20 meters could quickly become near impossible to clear by hand, especially while it's still coming down.
Hardship breeds creativity. Necessity is the mother of invention (except under excessive government intervention, which may be at the root of reservation problems).
Maybe if we could calculate the present day market value of all the land the US government stole from the Native Americans (I've heard we broke nearly every treaty we signed with the Native Americans... to our shame), that could be structural payments to encourage entrepreneurial activity on the reservation
(This was back in the late 70s to very early 80s, on account of fuel costs, inflation, etc.)
“How come they didn’t prepare better for a brutal winter”
Is the new “Dropbox will never work”
I think in this case it must be more about a level of poverty so extreme they can't even pull together the years supply ahead of time, even if the community as a whole does have it all ready.
Maybe they don't distribute it except it tiny amounts for some reason? Maybe it gets stolen or sold?
I mean I can only assume that there is some reason they can't do the sensible thing. I couldn't imagine risking relying on daily or weekly deliveries of tiny armloads of wood. I can only assume anyone doing that has no choice or at least thinks they have no choice. I'm sure there are a few individuals who are just, let's say thoughtless, because there are always some, I'm not counting those.
From the article:
Oglala-based service organization Re-Member provides firewood to families on all corners of the reservation, but the drifts of snow have rendered their wood stockpile inaccessible still – and it’ll be that way for the foreseeable future.
“Our wood pile remains inaccessible,” read a Facebook post on Dec. 20. “Our skid steer and plow are out-of-service. Given the conditions, it would be near impossible to operate our equipment and unsafe for our staff to work in the conditions we are facing.
That is, one of the key stockpiles serving the community couldn't provide fuelwood due to both weather conditions and broken equipment.
And, as numerous others have noted, the region is desperately poor and remote.
I disagree. Or, at least where I live (densely populated europe), nearly everyone with their own house has at lease one (small) fireplace with some wood stored outside, typically enough for at least a month (otherwhise, do you go shopping wood every week?). Food-wise I agree that 8 days may touch the limits of food supply for families, but I know plenty people that have pasta / rice in stock for days. And this is in Europe without any wilderness. I cant believe that more rural americans are less equiped than this altough maybe I am wrong.
[1] - https://windriver.org/destinations/wind-river-indian-reserva...
[2] - https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbr/passes-permits/forestprod...
Plus, even if they do live near a forest, I'm not sure if the Forest Service would have jurisdiction. It's possible the tribe has the rights, or the BIA handles it.
It's a shame for a country with a tradition of beautiful and efficient wood fireplaces like these: https://www.land.se/hus-hem/skaffa-kakelugn-tips-och-rad-du-...
I wouldn't say that, I try and always have 3 months supply of food on hand in case something happens, even just a temporary job loss, in fact the idea of having less than a full months supply of food on hand seems terrifying to me, as evidenced all you need is one bad winter storm and your looking at starvation.
In fact the church I belong to encourages members to have 1-6 months supply of food on hand in case of emergencies and it would be something I'd recommend everyone do. It gives you substantial peace of mind.
[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5413445,22.4545999,3a,49y,10...
If you haven’t already, I recommend having a supply of canned beans, canned tuna, canned meats to preference, canned sardines, bulk rice (you can drop dry ice in a 5 gallon container and fill it with rice, then put silica packets on top, then seal it). With that, you can eat pretty good limited only by the duration being prepared for, and it is relatively cheap & space efficient.
For water, buy a Sawyer filter. I like the squeeze. They are capable of removing most harmful organisms out of the water, are very portable, and would help a lot during a water supply issue. They do not filter chemicals or dissolved solids. I use mine when backpacking to drink out of just about every fresh water source you can imagine, and I use it when traveling to other countries with questionable water supplies.
Also, do yourself a favor and buy a bidet seat. These will change your life. Not only is it more hygienic, it reduces the use of toilet paper significantly. In the event of disaster but water is still flowing, that is one less thing to think about.
For warmth, have the layers available. A wool base layer can keep you warm in even the coldest climates. Do not use cotton; cotton is deadly when wet in cold. Wool insulates even when wet — this is commonly known but I have actually tested it with wool socks walking around in the Virgin river in Zion National Park during the height of winter, among other places. Also would want an insulated windbreaker that can be removed as needed. Warm clothing / blankets / etc is more reliable than a fuel source for heating in my opinion, because you could get snowed in and cut off from the fuel.
These are not actions reserved for just preppers. I think everyone should have this kind of basic readiness on some level. No one in the US, for instance, has any excuse because it is all very very affordable, and also contribute positively to the environment in the case of a bidet seat.
If I was in the position most of you are in (I have opted out of the housing market for ethical reasons), I’d also be powered mostly via solar and a 3 day reserve battery for the house. Expensive, but worth it. All my heating and cooling would be electrical and I would have an inductive stovetop. Everything electrified. It is a privilege to have that kind of prep but it has a dual purpose of not hurting the environment.
When I am in the wild, I do not like to carry anything that is singular purpose. Everything must have multiple uses. This reduces waste and increases efficiency in many ways. Likewise, for disaster readiness, you need to tweak the way you live normally to be efficient during disaster. A bidet seat, for instance, is a good example. This makes your life more efficient, more comfortable, and reduces waste. Simultaneously, it functions much better during disaster.
Food storage can also be done similarly. Store things you would actually eat but preserve well. Rotate the storage by actually using it; this lets you keep track of what is still good and integrates it into your diet realistically.
Water filters can be used while hiking. Use them. Go on a hike and take a drink from your rivers or lakes. It is refreshing. If your rivers and lakes have dangerous chemicals dissolved in it because of human activity, don’t you think something should be done about that?
Aim for at least dual purpose in things. Readiness should function without the survival aspect and flow into survival without friction.
Thank you for sharing all of these recommendations.
Remember that without power you have no exhaust fan and must ventilate appropriately.
A kerosene heater is a great investment in colder areas, hardware store sealed kerosene will last nearly forever.
Without that, the method for heating food I’d use is a propane stove. You can get a single burner for under $30. I always have 4, 5lbs propane canisters with me to cook while traveling. For a house, you can have a large propane tank.
I don't think you've run the numbers here, at all. Battery storage that can provide off-grid heat-pump heating for a single dead-of-winter design night is bordering on impractical. Creating a buffer that could last 3 whole days (4-5x the size) would be blatantly prohibitive.
Batteries only make sense for daily cycling to deal with the dark. It's much less expensive and most likely less environmentally destructive to supply longer term backup electricity needs from a traditional generator and dino juice than to manufacture batteries just to have them sitting around basically unused.
The sensible way to spend capital investment is on more insulation to make your heating load quite low to begin with (eg PassivHaus). Perhaps this dovetails into your thinking, but if so you should lead with and focus on that, as talking about supplying heating loads with batteries is just insane.
edit: Also, how is it even possible to opt out of the housing market? The only ways I can think of:
1. Bundle up with warm clothing and sleep rough (moving on when needed)
2. Squat, in an unoccupied structure or even an occupied one without the knowledge of the other residents.
3. Build your own house and claim that you're at least not part of the economic market. But you would still need land to do that, which is the main problem with the housing market.
If you have solar, you won’t ever go 3 days without some energy generation. The 3 days of battery is mainly a buffer for night time when solar is offline.
I just think, at the very least, getting people thinking about these topics and perhaps even convincing someone to make some lifestyle changes could be really helpful, and well, it just isn’t often words from internet strangers could have such a direct impact.
Ultimately, my thinking is that I can’t help the people in that article here, but I can try and contribute to the readers in my small way.
That recommendation is for people with the money to do it, which is most of us here. I was replying to someone talking about most “rural” people and extended the reply to be relevant to people here.
Given I sleep most nights in a hammock in woods backpacking and travel around nonstop, and have no trouble in sub-zero wilderness, I have definitely opted out of housing and may or may not know something about what I’m talking about.
Believe it or not, people with ethics and willpower to follow through still exist. I have opted out of housing and opted out of having children, because the housing situation is unconscionable and refuse to participate in it (nor will I enrich people participating in it by paying their outrageous rates). I would never bring a child into this world as it is and where its going, so that is an easy one.
Okay, I do agree this qualifies as opting out of the housing market.
> Believe it or not, people with ethics and willpower to follow through still exist
Sure. I'm there myself on a few topics, and have lived them for quite some time. But you need to understand that this puts you at odds with 99% of society, and as such your example isn't going to be found as actionable advice by the sheer majority of people - even people who agree with you 90% of the way.
Would you mind sharing your numbers? If I just spitball with a 10kBTU/hr design load, a heat pump COP of 3, and assume that your heating requirements are entirely taken care of by that design load for 8 hours at night, that's still like 3 Powerwalls to last 3 nights. I'd say there are better ways to spend those resources, especially considering that batteries wear out like everything else.
All things told I was prepared to spend around $75k on electrical to make this happen in a remote location, which seemed reasonable to me given the capabilities & stability I would get in return. It is not something most people could afford, but most people here on HN probably could which is why I mentioned it.
For emergencies, I think I would put more trust in a low-tech wood burner, moving extra wood in-house whenever there’s a serious storm forecast.
Still, in general it seems like the ultimate design constraint is always low probability events adding up - eg solar generation getting severely cut for a week, due to snow on the panels and cloudy days or hardware failure, coupled with many cold nights in a row. For which a fall back to a more traditional denser energy source (wood or gasoline) that you'd end up using every few years comes in much cheaper than trying to oversize the primary battery storage to handle every long tail event.
More than half of people in the United States may not be able to cover a $1k emergency expense from savings.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/01/19/56p...
While some of that effect is due to economic choices, much of it is not. It is difficult to prepare for a long-tail disaster when you're facing oodles of short-term needs.
It is just a matter of priorities and knowledge, and who is here on Hacker News reading what I wrote? Is it a population that can afford these suggestions or isn’t it?
There are plenty of people in the US who can barely scrape together enough to feed themselves for a day. Telling these people to just spend more money isn't helpful.
If you are fortunate enough to have a fixed location and are able to survive in general society, I can assure you, you can find some way to scrape together a rolling supply of beans and rice.
If nothing else, these are served in abundance at food banks. I should know because I have friends in some parts of the country who are homeless & regularly used food banks. They had no place to store long term stuff (although I have found buried caches before, I don’t know people who regularly do that) so my advice wouldn’t apply to them, but if someone went to a food bank and had a fixed location for storage, I am sure they would have no trouble being able to secure a large supply of rice and beans.
A large issue with poverty is it generates a mindset where these kinds of preparations are much lower priority than daily survival, so that would be a more reasonable reason to point at I think.
As another comment pointed out, median income in Pine Ridge is $4k per year.
I don’t think really any of your advice is compatible with that income level.
What a thing to say.
The article is about the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, with >80% unemployment and average incomes of $4000 per year. I expect their notions of "very affordable" may not match yours.
You are getting a lot of flak for this, but I completely agree. For the salaries many on HN take home (well into the six figures) this should be far more of a priority. There is almost no excuse to not do it in any semi-rural setting - I see it as outright negligence if you make that sort of money and have a living situation that allows it.
You mentioned $75k previously - that would be for an extremely small house. I've also ran the numbers, and for $250-500k (depending on climate) you can basically live in a normal sized house and be completely off-grid indefinitely. That's a ton of money, but almost nothing when compared with a FAANG salary over a decade.
If that is a bit too crazy for you, you can get back to the ~$150k number by the simple addition of a backup generator fueled by on-site propane. Get a few tanks on-site and it's pretty easy to have a 60 day supply on-hand at all times when combined with your solar generation during the day. Propane doesn't go bad so you can basically store it indefinitely. Add in a wood stove and you really can go as long as your food and medical supplies last.
It's strange to me more folks in this position do not make this a priority. Just adding rooftop solar+batteries+roll-up generator seems to be too far "out there" for most people to even consider.
I've noticed since COVID these attitudes are slowly shifting, so we'll see what the future brings. The sheer number of friends I know who have less than a week's worth of food in the house and not even a little Honda 2000w generator is uncomfortable to me.
I realize a lot of good fortune and privilege allowed this which is why I can’t fault the poor folks in the article.
In my area people who don't cut their own just buy a cord or whatever they need each fall. Enough to go through winter.
People who cut their own will generally have more than that.
The people I know have propane heaters for backup, with their own tanks. I have a 500 gallon tank.
I'm not a prepper.