I can get it to work because the terminal doesn't scare me, but there's no way I can recommend it to anyone without a certain amount of technical skills.
I started daily driving linux in the 90s. When I switched to a mac around 2010 if found Mac exhausting. It had different usage patterns than I was used to. Some of my most used features weren't there. Having a reasonably usable shell experience required lots of tweaking and macports then brew. When I switched back to linux ~5 years ago there was a while where getting back into the linux groove was exhausting because I wasn't used to it, but not as exhausting as switching to mac because I already knew it, just needed to get back in practice.
Every time i use windows (which is rarely, once a year maybe) i find it exhausting.
I propose that it's not the OS that's the exhausting part - it's the switching to a new environment with different workflows and thought processes around it that is exhausting. Similar to how it's much harder to get familiar with a codebase in a new (to you) language than in a language you are proficient in - but both cases can be taxing.
Programming languages - you could argue Rust isn't hard to learn, by pretending that everyone claiming it is are just having trouble adjusting from javascript. But that breaks down when you realise the Rust learners finding it hard are actually polyglot programmers who are finding it harder than all the many other languages, in multiple paradigms, they have already successfully learned.
Similar with Linux - I find it harder to 'use' in a certain sense (the sense most people mean - which is getting all the ordinary hardware & software stuff working) than the others. You'll tell me it's unfamiliarity, but it's just not - my first Linux was Slackware on floppies, and I've used it alongside Windows and MacOS now for decades. I choose it for my primary OS for other reasons, but ease of use certainly isn't among them. I still have to fiddle more with it .
The fact the mouse scroll wheel doesn't even work well on Linux is just shameful.
The issue is the scroll speed and amount is inconsistent between applications.
And now with some applications trying to implement smooth scrolling it's even worse.
A. I'm looking at pointer speed section in Mouse Preference in Control Center. It's pretty simple. It give acceleration and sensitivy.
B. Just about every GUI aims for decent defaults and doesn't allow endless customization and such customization generally isn't a beginner task.
I've used the Linux desktop for ten years (Mint then Ubuntu-Mate). Haven't customized anything with a bash script for many years. It is currently clearer how to do things than Windows - it's fricken TWO start menus jumping over each other.
On the one hand, I'd certainly admit Linux has "warts". It's GUI is perfectly usable and clear - it's more now what one is doing than the horror that is Windows 11 imo (and I'm working on that occasionally now). But the warts of Linux are accentuated by the OS attracting a certain kind of "OCD" user who will tell you how terrible it is for lacking X utterly obscure feature.
Dismissing people's needs isnt the way to solve this.
Then we can get a better sense of how niche these demands are, and how well these desktop OSes support them
Sandboxing is ridiculously bad on all 3, the best being MacOS. But this is one area where desktop OSs are simply way behind mobile ones.
These are all things that make Linux on the desktop inaccessible. The moment you start talking about weird cultural minutiae like this, the whole thing is already incredibly inaccessible in my eyes.
Seems approximately equally true and arbitrary.
Just because you've used Linux-training wheels edition and don't remember having problems isn't grounds to dismiss the large number of people who do have issues with Linux.
I also find Linux exhausting. I use it daily in servers and containers. It excels from an administrative perspective. I avoid using it as a client desktop pc at all cost because that is not where it excels.
Experience makes it all much easier, simply because you learn which software to avoid. Having this experience, linux for me is stress free and low hassle. But if you don't want to accumulate that experience, if you want to stay on a default track with the right choices made for you already, then you probably should go with your gut and get a Mac.
Anyway, the "year of the linux desktop" is a joke. The very premise is an old meme that nobody should take seriously, nobody can even agree what it should mean. The year linux became viable for desktop use depends on the person doing the considering. For some it was years ago, for others it will be never.
What would you recommend as a modern-day user-friendly Linux experience? I've been looking for something not too demanding to put on an old X220.
It might also be a Wayland and/or libinput limitation.
To the average Joe Blow, I don't recommend any Linux distro. I only give recommendations about Linux to people who already want to use Linux for their own reasons; I don't evangelize it to people who are already content with Windows or Macs. For such people, Windows or Macs are a better choice.
Windows + WSL is pretty neat and very close to be the best of two worlds.
The average Joe, friend of mine, doing mostly SEO stuff (so has some basic web background) was able to start using WSL to run his curl tests, running some tools like sitespeed.io in his docker and things of that sort, without leaving his lovely Windows system.
So I'm pretty assured here.
There are others like it as well.
I've been running linux on my desktops/laptops and servers for the past 24 years. I've not run into problems from a desktop/laptop perspective for the last 15 years. Some have, but its rare.
I would try Mint with KDE but also try a few other desktops. Maybe you will like them more.
True, there’s two:
1. Complaining about your experience, only to be told that someone else doesn’t have problems because they’re better at it than you.
2. Being the guy who says he’s better.
It is a general and widespread phenomenon though that anyone who has been less than positive towards Linux on HN or anywhere will recognise. I don't think it reflects animosity towards users of mainstream OS's so much as defensiveness, particularly from strongly self-identified Linux advocates. Which is all a bit daft, because it's (a) perfectly obvious that Linux has plenty of problems (how could something as vast as an OS not?), and (b) that doesn't make it any less the clear choice for some classes of user (like myself).
But if somebody does stick with it and gain that experience, it's often possible for them to find a combination of software and settings that earnestly work well for them personally. It's not as though linux users are all masochists, the reason I continue using Linux is because for me, it's lower stress and hassle than anything else. I learned to use it when I was younger and thought that tinkering with such software was fun. That allure wore off years ago and my present self wouldn't have the patience to learn it all over again, but Linux remains the best choice for me given the experience I already have with it.
I do find the Linux community often insufferable though. Also often extremely helpful however. I guess communities also have their tradeoffs.
This is me. I have one SSD each dedicated to Windows and Linux, and I use Linux fairly regularly. However, I still use Windows for most of my work, because Linux's multi-monitor, Wayland, and HiDPI support is still questionable. I used to love to tinker, but now I just want to get my work done.
I’m not taking anything away from your experiences though. Just offering another data point.
I do get the appeal of macOS. I use it for work but I honestly find it more frustrating than pleasurable but that’s purely because I don’t always agree with Apples design choices.
…And that is the real problem with macOS for me. If you like their default experience then it’s a much more pleasurable platform to use. But if there’s any significant part of Apples design choices you don’t get alone with, then you’re often shit out of luck. Trying to bend macOS to behave any way outside of Apples vision can be more frustrating than dealing with Linux quirks.
That all said, I am in love with the battery life on the ARM MacBook Pros. I’ve managed to go a full working day without plugging the MBP in. There isn’t any comparative device out there for Linux.
So in the end I find Linux for personal devices and macOS for work is a great compromise for me.
I am a bit of a power user, running large builds, analytics, and other things, so its not surprising to me that I get less than others. I would like to see an all-day battery laptop for people like me, though I suspect it will be a few more years.
Oh, and the original work windows laptop I had (fully corporate controlled) with 32GB RAM and 500GB NVMe barely lasted an hour on battery. And it BSODed frequently.
I'd still prefer a Linux work laptop, but the Mac is at least a poor-mans version of it. Windows, even with WSL2, was horrible.
This is Ubuntu and GNOME both having adopted unfortunate strategies wrt UX in recent years. They seem to be trying to emulate the Apple "we know best, take it or leave it", removing customization and freezing the UI, but without the resources spent on getting it "perfect" for the majority. They may still be fine choices for some users but they closed the door on being the "just use this" generic options.
KDE has supported changing mouse scroll from the UI for some time. Linux Mint (including its Debian edition) with MATE or Cinnamon, or BudgieWM are other fine choices for non-terminal users. Fedora has been picking up as a general all-round desktop distro as Ubuntu has been falling from grace.
If you think that Ubuntu has poor user-friendlyness wait until you try this new "Windows 10" thing everyone seems to be on about.
You have to click through about ten pages of menus just to set up the network, and if you get anything wrong the error message is just along the lines of either "Sorry, that didn't work. Please try again!" or "Error -X8004a119af3c occurred", neither of which are particularly helpful. It doesn't come with a usable shell. It doesn't even come with ssh, or zip, or Python.
You're expected to interact with the entire thing by clicking on page after page after page of little coloured squares that aren't meaningfully labelled. Why is a user interface designed like a 1980s "My First Video Game" project supposed to be good?
2. KDE and Gnome created two different rivaling GUI's. Never merged and split the development community down the middle.
3. There are N different GUI libraries: FLTK, GTK+, QT, wxWidgets, etc.
4. There are 3 different cross platform packaging solutions: Snap, Flatpak, AppImage
5. GPU and Wifi drivers can be a pain to get running sometimes, even if they're prepackaged for you. (Hell, my Nvidia drivers crash my windows laptop all the time).
6. Support for hardware sometimes requires third party libraries (solaar for logitech, etc).
7. Some software only supports Mac/Windows, but Mac won't legally let you install their OS in a VM, (not that it stops some people). If you're a business you're forced to use windows anyway for niche software that won't run with Wine.
8. Battery life on laptops typically is worse than a comparative windows/mac system -- because windows and mac tweak more settings for power and performance.
And MacOS is just too slow. There’s far too many animations and it’s extremely difficult to multitask in a useful way.
It’s like Apple has basically been creating MacOS features based on 2 criteria’s. Either so they look good in a demo, or they’re a replica of an iOS app.
I just checked on my Macbook and I couldn't find any option to change scroll speed. So it's more that on Linux you _can_ create a bash script to do just about anything even when it's not a feature the OS has. Unlike others where it's either a simple UI button or you just can't do it.
It’s under Accessibility.
That said, Windows/MacOS are MUCH more stable. Granted, I didn't use them nearly as much, as I use Linux (mainly Ubuntu and mainly LTS versions), but I basically didn't encounter any hardware-specific bugs at all for the last couple of years. Or some deep ecosystem problem, like all this Pulseaudio bullshit.
Linux is really frustrating, and I'm starting to actually lose hope we'll live to see it becoming, you know, usable.
This is easily the most common reason for updates breaking. RPM and dpkg are both nigh bullet proof, and you can generally count on most distros to keep their own package repo in good order. Dependency resolution between out of sync and uncoordinated package repos is where things start to break down.
The Linux volunteer community needs an attitude shift to start recommending the user friendly method over the complicated methods. You don't need to apt install Chrome, it's in your software store, just like most other programs you probably want. If you go die-hard Linux (Arch, Gentoo, etc.) then perhaps there are too many variations in use to give a clear cross DE answer but on Ubuntu 99% of users are on GNOME with Ubuntu customisations, so you can use the Disks tool instead of dd, the Disk Usage analyser instead of a complicated du grep sort command and the software manager instead of apt for almost every common task.
Linux people are often fond of their command line and so am I, but this way any normal user will quickly shy away from the platform for no good reason. There are also people who have weirdly strict opinions about the "right" way to do things (systemd hate, Wayland hate, vim enthusiasts, bash vs zsh vs fish debates) that ruin the experience for everyone but will leave an especially bad impression for newbies. You'd better know the difference between pacman, apt, dnf, and brew before you go to the Arch forum or expect to be insulted for being such a complete idiot to even consider asking a question.
Windows settings are much more difficult to navigate. The layout / structure has changed a lot between updates. Settings are hidden deep within preferences menus with multiple tabs.
Google for things and you find ad ridden pages with screenshots and pop-ups about clicking here, there, then here.
It's a mess.
The start menu, task bar, context menus and almost every other aspect of the UI got a significant downgrade in the process, which is a pain, but at least the settings were fixed.
Take mouse speed, for example. I remember this being incredibly difficult in OSX: https://www.reddit.com/r/macgaming/comments/7bg3gg/removing_...
On linux it's just a menu option in a gui, or a single command.
Every platform has plenty of bugs, but I find it is consistently easier to figure out how to change/fix things on Linux than on OSX or Windows. OSX is probably the worst platform as soon as you're doing something Apple didn't anticipate (or, is actively blocking you from doing).
Indeed, I never realized there does not seem to be a Ubuntu system setting for adjusting the mouse wheel sensitivity. Apparently, standard solution requires installing „imwheel“.
Lol. Weird. Then, again, in 15 years using a scroll wheel mouse I never had the need to adjust its sensitivity.
I have a lot more issues with Windows moving stuff. Settings are a mess W7 -> W10 -> W11.
Qubes is still my go-to if I have to deal with malware infested things.
I'm full time (95%) on Fedora KDE (Desktop Ryzen 2000, RX500). I've had some quirks with Veracrypt and an external drive and crashes related to running out of memory (I'm sure DotA2 leaks memory since the performance gets worse over time)
I've checked my desktop for mouse scroll speed and actually don't have that option. I did change my scroll speed in one case which is Firefox (about:config => mousewheel.default.delta_multiplier_y = 85)
Try KDE / Kubuntu, it features the scroll speed control [1]. (Xfce, sadly, does not.)
Also sadly, Mac is increasingly windows-like, with things that tend not to work out of the box (and just unsupported), and software updates bringing some trouble, especially huge updates like a new OS version.
I stick with a Linux desktop where I at least acceptably understand and control every important aspect. I did have a Mac at work for several years, and it was also pretty fiddly in certain aspects.
I regularly revisit Linux for desktop (like every five years) and this time I moved 100% from Windows 11 to Fedora 37 and it's been a delight. It's not only a good desktop OS now: I find it better than Windows. Why?
* Performance: I think it's more responsive, like the file manager. It doesn't have an innate dependency on scanning every single thing for viruses that is hard to disable per design. I think my SSD loves me now.
* Ads integrated in the OS: Well. It doesn't have these.
* Customizability: Even GNOME that is not known for this can adapt to the user much better than Windows 11. Windows 11 is terrible and takes steps backwards in this regard. For example GNOME Tweaks + Dash to Dock and I have a Mac-like dock. It's like the Mac dock but more customizable, and it's easy to customize too. Hell I can even customize FreeType to choose between ClearType style rendering or macOS Quartz-like rendering (respect LCD pixel boundaries vs respect font design - you can only have one).
* Apps: Linux culture is to rely on repositories for apps. Windows isn't. They have winget and Microsoft Store now but it's still an unresolved cultural problem where only a subset of apps are found there, and if they do, they more often than not do system-wide changes anyway. Linux has nice, easy to use, stores like Mac. Linux is also miles ahead with containerized app systems like Flatpak or Snap where UWP support (Windows counterpart) is more than shaky in the big picture, and I'd even say a failure.
* Mouse Scroll Speed: Is set in GNOME settings.
* Software Updates: Have still always worked for the past few months.
* Crashes: None yet! Other than app-specific ones but so far only "silent" stuff that don't really affect me that seems to relate to the file manager and thumbnailing corrupt h.264 videos? (a guess from the logs)
I guess your mileage MAY still vary here but as for me, this is clearly a better and more user friendly OS now than Windows 11. I can't believe I'm saying this. But it just is for me and my hardware + software setup now. I like photography and Darktable is a full-fledged Lightroom competitor too.
I'm not a Linux nut either. I was positively surprised and this is the first time in twenty years I've finally felt fine with moving from Windows.
Games? Yes, at 40+ years of age I still do that, juggling time with family life. I have an Xbox Series X for that, letting me use a tiny Intel NUC as my PC. The Xbox gives me a much more fun experience with gaming than a Mac. Been there. Never again.
* Unless your usage is so light that all your computing can be done on ChromeOS or iOS, but even those are plenty annoying.
This is a totally legitimate gripe. On the other hand, I like to have the key repeat speed set to higher than MacOS lets me in their menu, so I also need to configure this in the terminal, except the only references I can find for it safe random stackoverflow questions and blog posts rather than official documentation, so the units are unclear (I can't remember if it's the delay before repeat or the actual repeat speed, but I remember being surprised about how one of them worked with regard to needing to modify the value in the opposite direction than I expected), and I need to log out and back in to test it, after which I might need to tweak again due to not really understanding the units and maybe overcalibrating, which requires another logout...etc.
MacOS is probably easier if you don't want to stray at all off the prescribed path, but any time I needed to do something even slightly outside the seemingly arbitrary sanctioned happy path, it ends up being either even more annoying to configure than Linux, requiring some app that inevitably wants to me to pay them for what feels like basic functionality to me, or is completely impossible regardless of how much effort or money I'm willing to spend. Given how much I like the setup I've been using for years on Linux and how rarely things break for me compared to MacOS updates due to functionality being provided by third party apps (e.g. my iTerm shortcut for showing/hiding the fullscreen terminal occasionally not working after being required to a major OS update, but working just enough of the time that I suspect I wouldn't be able to find a fix), I won't ever be running anything else on my personal machine unless something drastically changes.
xinput --set-prop "Kingsis Peripherals Evoluent VerticalMouse D" "libinput Scroll Distance Scale" 2 2
aside from
xinput --set-prop "Kingsis Peripherals Evoluent VerticalMouse D" "libinput Accel Speed" -1.0
for cursor speed which already worked. HTH
Edit: Patch by 3rd party, I fixed it up so would apply cleanly to most recent package.
You either have hardware problems, or something screwed up your install; the settings manager for mouse acceleration is available where all other settings are, no scripts or command line editing necessary, just a couple clicks and you're done. Now I'm not exactly a fan of Ubuntu and prefer other distros but software updates do actually work on Ubuntu, and I'm not aware of any problems that could cause random crashes. At least on Debian I lost memory of the last time I had to reset the machine due to a crash. Check your system, it may have software and/or hardware problems elsewhere.
The updates are fine these days unless you add external repositories. Sadly, that's what every forum post and blog article will tell you to do.
Rsndom crashes occur if your hardware has problematic drivers (Nvidia, sometimes Intel) and they're a mixed bag. Laptops are more of a problem than desktops but sometimes you just have bad luck. It can also depend on the kernel your distro chose because sometimes a lot of problems can be fixed by updating to a higher LTS version, but the end user should never even need to know this is an option let alone try it for themselves. Canonical and others also include their own kernel patches sometimes which is a whole lot of fun when it comes to reporting bugs.
Things are getting better in the Linux desktop, but in a slow pace. I had some hope with the PopOs (I don't know what they are doing nowadays).
I definitely don't recommend Linux for people who don't want to use the terminal. Actually I hate it when they do and try to make Linux look like Windows/macOS. If you want the Windows/macOS experience, use Windows/macOS.
It's been an incredibly smooth experience.
That said, the one thing that I still haven't migrated over to fully is Linux on a laptop. I'm macOS on an Apple MacBook Pro 14" (powered by Apple's M1 Pro).
I have to use Windows for work, and I ended up just throwing in the towel this year and switching back to the dark side for the time being because I have to get shit done.
My macOS (Intel MBP) and Windows (Dell laptop) end up with something borked by updates pretty much like clockwork. I suppose I am a poweruser of those systems by nature of being a dev, but something always tends to stop working.
ChromeOS and Android are also Linux and users seem to get along just fine with those too.
I never experience crashes except when I have maxed out my ram doing something dumb.
This (IMO) is precisely why Ubuntu is not a user-friendly distro. Fedora (and especially Silverblue) is much more user-friendly in this regard.
I know it's common to judge Linux in general on the basis of Ubuntu in particular, but I don't think it's a fair assessment.
Then it's a good thing we are on hacker news!!
I think it really depends on what you use at home though. I've run Linux as my primary OS from the beginning (when I got my first laptop at 10y/o.) If you use different technology at work and at home you're probably going to run into this. Something I've done in the past when this gets bad is to find excuses to use the technology at home (even if I think it's inferior to what I would have otherwise chosen.) This tends to resolve the problem even if I don't stick with it.
I’ve invited a a long time Linux user who claimed to never had any problems whatsover to have a look. His verdict was that I should have only one external screen and use the same screen in the different places.
This stuff works with Windows and Mac out of the box.