I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment.
Unrelated, related story.
We got into town on a bank holiday and almost everything was closed. We saw a guy come out of a door and walk towards us. We asked if he knew where we could get breakfast and he said "Nope. Cheers Mate!" We were at a four-way stop and had to pick a direction. We ended up walking in the direction that the guy had come from.. And it turned out he had just walked out of a restaurant serving breakfast. I've understood "Cheers Mate" to mean "Fuck Off" since then.
Back to the story.
The third time he got an "OHHHHH, POOOOLISH!" from someone looking at his passport, he snatched it from the guy, smiled, and said "Nope. American. Cheers Mate." and walked in.
After the trip he reflected on how some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years. He ended up changing his name.
You can't change your skin color.
Prejudice is out there and there was always that weird moment of "Is this really happening or are we imagining it?"
Having it be subtle enough that you're left wondering, that was the most fucked up part.
So I know what you mean.
Give 'em a "Cheers Mate." next time it happens.
It's more likely due to someone with an American accent asking strangers questions, people immediately think loud tourist and stay away.
I have many friends, Polish, Turkish, British of various ethnicities, Africans from a few different countries, Middle Easterners, Americans (mostly South and Central), you name it.... I have never heard of any of them being treated in such a way.
Also, why was this person flaunting a passport around London? The only times I had mine on me were when coming in or out of the country. Then, he decides to change his name because of how "some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years"?
Assuming the story is true, I somehow don't think the problem has ever been his name, surname, physical appearance or passport. I don't want to assume a lie but there are definitely important pieces missing.
He doesn't really talk about it openly. That's kind of the reason for the change, to not draw attention to it.
I think he listed the story as the reason for name change in the court docs. So be skeptical all you like but I'm over 99% sure that part can be proven true.
I just think there are too many combined unlikely elements in it, and that it's more likely to have been of a personal nature rather than any kind of profiling or generalisation due to his name or passport.
Obviously, I could be very wrong and your friend might be the loveliest person in the world who also happened to be very very unlucky in his dealings with the Brits.
My comment had the 3-4 lowlights of the trip but there were many, many highlights.. Like the time we went the wrong way on the train and needed to catch a cab so we wouldn't be late for a first impression meeting. For some reason that I can't fully recall (didn't take cards?) we couldn't pay the cabbie. He knew early on in the trip but he took us the full distance. He said "Everyone needs a lift now and again." as we got out. Wouldn't give us his contact info either. Couldn't pay him back, had to pay it forward.
We LOVED London. I want to live there for a year if I ever get the chance. But, shitty people are everywhere. Gotta keep an eye out.
Luckily, lots of people are great no matter where you go.
edit
I found a previous comment where I talked a bit more about some of the good stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33830648
See this recent article: https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages...
Britain is not racist per se, it’s xenophobic. For years before Brexit the group that drew the most ire were white Eastern Europeans.
Being African American might even be an asset as there’s a bit of a stigma against white Americans.
As a white British family, we often get turned away from half empty restaurants too.
If you turn up at 12 noon, they will hold the table even if it isn’t booked till 1.30 pm. I wonder how much revenue they leak from this as it seems so obvious to let you take the table on a time limit but they never offer.
I think some are also still running under capacity post Covid and with staffing issues.
It's one of the most culturally diverse cities on earth, that's not to say we don't have racists...we obviously do but social etiquette dictates that you keep that shit to yourself...doubly so if in the service industry.
As an aside not London related but culturally significant - during WWII American GIs needed to be warned that black soldiers would be treated equal to white, when US commanders demanded a segregated bar in the town of Bamber Bridge, all three pubs in the town reportedly posted "Black Troops Only" signs.
Please give my city another chance.
London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant.
If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for being black. Maybe there was another reason the person didn't like the look of you? Maybe just someone having a rough day and didn't want to serve any more customers etc, I wouldn't jump straight to racism, all you know is that you were turned away when they had a table, but the reason is an unknown unknown.
You say "You don't know what to make of this" but then your title says 'racism'... the reality is something odd happened that you don't know what, I wouldn't hold on to that, just get on with your day, there are plenty of real dicks and real bad apples to deal with, rather than assuming that because something strange happened it was for this reason.
I'm not knocking you, you likely feel this way for very justified reasons, i.e there are a lot of racists out there and it is an issue you have to deal with that you should not, but it's not worth adding to that with something you don't for sure know is the reason.
She turned around, had a look around and gave us a table.
I have no idea what the people in front of us did wrong. They seemed pleasant and polite. But everyone involved was white, so I wouldn't necessarily take your issue as racist.
I (a white dude in my 30s) recently went to a high end clothes shop, intending to buy a nice shirt for Christmas. As I asked one of the sales assistants for help, she instantly proclaimed they "have nothing in my size" and that I "must use their online store". This shocked me a bit as, while in a big guy I'm far from huge. I work out a lot, and I'm a tad big, but come on... I asked if I could try the largest shirt they stock in store and she reluctantly agreed, and after putting it on it was about 4 sizes too big.
The thing is, I walked in wearing a dirty fleece jacket, and I hadn't shaved for about 2 weeks as I had been really ill, it was my first day back at work for for a while.
The experience felt alien to be because usually the sales assistants will fight for my attention - presumably because I look like good commission. Except on this one occasion I looked like trouble - maybe a homeless person taking the piss :)
While I've never experienced racism, for obvious reasons, and can't testify to what that feels like, I suspect this is a low level variation of the same effect that black/east Asian people experience daily. The hostess sees you approach and instantly stereotypes you as a certain type of person. Obviously, racial stereotypes will play a part in this classification. But just like I was classified as "scruffy weirdo" by the sales assistant in the clothes store, I might just as well have been turned away by the same restaurant you went to, had I gone there looking like I did.
I could go and tell you "ayo, you need to change your external appearance for people to treat you right" that sounds... incredibly patronizing, racist and wrong. So I'm not going to do that. But at the same time it is a solution to this "problem"... just like the when I went shopping the next day, I had shaved and put on a clean shirt, and suddenly everyone was happy to help and had clothes in my size to sell me :/
Summary; it's more about classifying people based on their external appearance than it is about straight-up racism. I'm sure they had a table for a black guy in a Gucci suit, and they would've been fully booked for a scruffy, homeless-looking white guy.
Come to Lisbon instead. We're not even that civilised but you certainly won't have trouble being served anywhere.
Elaborate?
Maybe we're missing the superiority complex.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discriminat...
I thought most of the racists had moved to Herefordshire.
> We Indians are an amusing bunch!
There’s some irony in ending your comment with a slightly racist remark. Imagine if one said, “Them <insert another race> are an amusing bunch!” A bit racist isn’t it?
I read a quote on HN that stuck with me and articulates why some Indians will say something self-hating (even when it’s off-topic, as you explicitly acknowledged in the first sentence of your comment):
“For many Indians, self-flagellation is a sign of their intellectual arrival.”
Perhaps an artifact of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality
If you come as a group of guys (or, most of the time, even as a mixed men/women group), you will be waiting in a long line at the entrance before you get in. Oftentimes, 45+ min wait, if the club is busy that night and popular.
But if you come as a group of attractive women (or, sometimes, a mixed group of attractive women and some guys, but with no more guys than women), clubs will often take you out of the massive line and let you through without almost any wait at all.
Not blaming the clubs for doing this, it kinda makes sense for their business, given the establishment type, so it doesn't feel that wrong (but i understand it is just my personal subjective take, and is very debatable).
Doing it by race (or foreigner/non-foreigner designation) though, like what your comment had described, for some reason to me feels actually awful and wrong to do though.
In fact, our experience was almost identical in a restaurant in Windsor, and after we were allowed in, we were sat in the worst spot behind a door, not allowed to use a different table and the waiter outright ignored us. A white family came and were given a great table, and attended to. All other tables were empty.
A few things helped:
1. Calling them out on it. If you have the energy and you feel it’s worth it, it’s worth escalating to the manager. Sometimes I’ve met racist managers too but in most cases they apologize, chalk it up to a misunderstanding and give a discount. In the case of the Windsor restaurant the manager told us to leave when we mentioned how badly we were treated , which we reported and were told that they had a history of it. But in other cases it’s worked out well.
2. I hate doing it, but I had to reflect on my own appearance. I had naturally wild curly hair, and a beard. This was neat for my hair type but not by straight hair standards (hair based racism is a big thing). Even though I was well dressed, a lot of people would look at me when I was single and distance themselves or not allow me in. So if I was going some place and I didn’t want to deal with it, I’d straighten my hair and try and find a female friend to go with me. This is also the case at border crossings. I’d get pulled aside for questioning or security checks more often, but when I travel with my wife or female friends, I’d always get passed through. There’s a lot of distrust for what people think are “scruffy, lone men” even if the reality is that they’re comparing to their racist aesthetic senses.
3. Find someone from your demographic or closer to it, like you did at this place. When we moved to the UK as a kid, my mum would do that and it took me a while to understand why. It was because she was initially treated poorly by many of the non-Indian staff and finding an Indian person there helped because they’d understand and help out.
4. Use humour. When I first moved to Canada I was greeted by a lot of racism. People outright refused to shake my hand. I found making jokes about their behaviour towards me , or the situation as a whole, either made them feel foolish or broke the ice enough that they felt momentarily endeared enough to see past their biases.
Dealing with day to day racism as an individual from other individuals is a form of social engineering. I try and understand their headspace and work around it. In most cases these people aren’t actively trying to be racist , but they’re also very unaware about what they’re doing. Those are the ones you can work around. The ones who are actively participating are the ones I move on from because they often get violent.
There’s also the issue that racism varies as a factor of multiple things. Take hair again as an example, people with not straight hair often get treated worse than those with straight hair. This applies to black people and Indians too, even when I lived in India. Having curly hair was seen as messy and unprofessional. So many of those places may have been fine with straight haired Indians but discriminated against curly haired ones.
When I grew up in India, I was denied a medical analysis by a doctor because I had curly hair for example. She straight up told me it was disrespectful to show up with that. We told her we’d complain to the authorities and she finally saw me (and we did complain after anyway).
Another example is Michelle Obama. If you see her recently, she’s embraced her natural hair. She straightened it when her husband was in office because it was just one more thing for them to be attacked on. A lot of Black women straighten their hair for office work to reduce the racism they encounter.
It’s often just that little extra difference that can put people over the edge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London#Ethnicity...
London can be great. It can also be incredibly disappointing when you’re confronted by the isms that we had expected to have been excised.
I would recommend giving your hard earned money to people that appreciate it. In my experience the non-racists offer tastier cuisine.
The recently released Abolition Revolution by Aviah Sarah Day and Shanice Octavia McBean might provide context on current dilemmas in Britain.