BBC Subtitle Guidelines
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS BECAUSE
OF GOOD OLD PROTECTIONISM OR
CONVERTING STATIONS TO HAVE A
TELETEXT COMPUTER ON EVERY
STATION IS IMPRACTICAL IN THE US
WHERE, AT THE TIME AT LEAST,
THERE ARE A DIVERSE NUMBER OF
BROADCASTERS WHICH MIGHT NOT
AFFORD THE EQUIPMENT NEEDED
SINCE TELETEXT IS AN "ACTIVE"
SYSTEM WHEREAS THE PBS-DEVE-
LOPED SYSTEM CAN BE USED ON
EXISTING, CAPTION-UNAWARE
SYSTEMS
... while the UK only had two broadcasters at the time, which are the BBC and the IBA (Independent Broadcasting Authority*), it is easier to develop and actually broadcast teletext.* Despite their name suggesting that it only monitors broadcasts, they are actually the broadcaster which has the authority to install teletext equipment. The then-ITV companies are only program suppliers to the IBA, not broadcasters in their own right.
For (foreign-language) subtitles that seems distracting and unnecessary, since even if you don't see the character speaking, you can recognize their voice.
But for closed-captioning (for the hard of hearing), it seems like it could add clarity. Yet in the past I've watched movies with CC without sound (like on a long-distance bus) and don't remember ever having a problem understanding who a line belonged to.
Does anybody have actual experience with color-coded captions and whether they're more of a help or more of a distraction?
As to why: it’s another datapoint to use to reconstruct what fully able people can do quickly. Sometimes captions aren’t well timed. Sometimes a lot of things happen very quickly and it’s hard to keep track. What if the camera isn’t on anyone’s face? You can probably figure it out by context, but why expend the mental energy when it can just be colored?
Just because you never had this issue (and I’m sure you did, it’s not like we remember the most mundane of details like this years later) doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.
You have a single set of guidelines (BBC doesn’t have two sets, nor does any other provider I know of) and a single set of subtitles as a result.
This is accessibility like anything else. High contrast can be used by many people on the ability spectrum for multiple various reasons. Subtitles are the same. Some use them because they’re deaf, some use them because they’re not confident enough in a language to use only one sensory input, some just like subtitles.
But since your claim is they’re separate, please show me exactly how they are separate. Show me the two separate style guides, show me providers differentiating between them and providing both captions and subtitles. Show me even the smallest sliver that backs up your claim. And, more importantly, show me the exact reasoning why color would work in one but not the other.
Similarly, subtitles are necessary for on-screen foreign language text (e.g., signs or documents), but not when the text is in the language that a deaf viewer understands. For example, you wouldn’t have an English subtitle for an on-screen sign in English, but you would for an on-screen sign in Chinese.
The BBC produces content exclusively (or nearly exclusively) in English, so these guidelines are surely directed towards captioning of English-language content for hearing-impaired, English-reading audiences.
In UK/Europe the older/simpler format would be OP-42/OP-47 Teletext[3] which can be used for captions instead of the full-screen data pages, or DVB Subtitles[4], which get into more uses around “subtitles” in terms of language translation, rather than only the “closed caption” use case where it matches the content language. DVB subtitles can be sent as pre-rendered bitmaps or as data for client-side rendering.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTA-708 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles
* in terms of 708-only features, not on the pedantic "ATSC uses the 708 system"
The requirements are quite high in Canada[1] and have been expanding in the US as well[2].
The company I work for makes products for broadcast customers, around asset management, linear playout automation, and the playout servers that insert the captions (from files or live data sources) so working out how that all happens is part of every big project.
[1] https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/info_sht/b321.htm [2] https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/closed-captioning-telev...
In that context, “teletext” just works the same as the North American 608 captions and has nothing to do with the older full-screen data stuff. There are no restrictions around authority for “teletext equipment” - for those channels they actually use systems fully based in AWS with the playout engine running on an EC2 instance so all software-only to generate the single MPEG transport stream with video/graphics + audio + captions + subtitles.
It’s also common to send a DVB subtitle multiplex that has a number of languages (up to 20+) embedded in the same signal.
Separate from DVB, the old PAL OP42/47 teletext payload gets inserted into the MPEG-TS using SMPTE 2038[1] then when decoded, it would go into regular ancillary data of the uncompressed stream per ITU-R BT.1120-7[2].
The broadcast industry really loves standards[3].
[1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7290549
[2] https://www.freetv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/OP-42-C...
[1] Although DVB can contain a full teletext stream that can be reinserted into the SD analogue VBI by the receiver. Sky boxes supported that so on some channels you could just go to ye olde page 888, although I haven't a clue if any channels still do that (I don't have an old SD Sky setup around to look).
* Indeed, the first test broadcasts from 1979 included color.
** This is due to the design of the original 1980 "decoder," which only 'worked well' for color when installed inside an NTSC television. For the external adapters, grayscale instead of color was displayed. The only way to view color captions in color back in 1980/1981 was with a TeleCaption TV - and there was only one model ever made.
I don’t know too much about it but I had read recently that ASL sign language can be thought of as a different language, rather than a direct equivalent to text subtitles[2].
[1] https://eegent.com/icap [2] https://imanyco.com/closed-captions-and-sign-language-not-a-...
Yes, it is a different language. I've heard that ASL is rather similar to French Sign Language and quite different from BSL (British Sign Language). If someone were to translate something from English into ASL, and someone else were to translate the ASL back into English, I'd expect the result to be as different from the original as if they'd gone via some other language, like Italian, for example.
(Apparently derived from the fact that in Italy, there's quite a lot more non-verbal communication with hand gestures than other parts of the world)
Watch someone signing: they use their face and body to convey emotions like anger, confusion, hesitation, love, joy, and the rest of the human range.
And that's the "original" emotion, it's not filtered through another human being. When you watch a movie without audio and with subtitles (like in a bar or on a bus), the emotions of the speakers are already awfully clear from the visuals.
For example, if we ask a question, it's not just that our voice goes up at the end. Our eyes move in a certain way too, slightly more opened and our eyebrows and sometimes cheeks raise.
And nobody's at a distance, the cameras are always on either a medium or close-up shot when filming politicians speaking.
If subtitles were equal value or even “good enough”, they’d be used exclusively. That they aren’t should tell you something, and you repeatedly protesting that you are unable to comprehend the value doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Separately, relatively dry sarcasm can't be visually picked up directly, but a signer may be able to suggest some of that with body/hand language.
I don't know how you'd possibly attempt to objectively quantify that degree, but my guess is that you're understating it. The entire deaf community is probably not mistaken about which means of communication are the most effective for them.
Yes, but a deaf person has trouble hearing how the speaker is speaking. They're missing out on the emotion in the voice.
Consider all of the emotion that can be conveyed in an audiobook, or on a phone call, or through music. Humans convey a lot of emotion in sound that is not represented visually. Part of sign language is conveying the emotion usually present in speech.
No, you can’t; how much emotion is shown via those things vs. tone, volume, and other auditory cues varies from speaker to speaker and speech to speech; sometimes, speakers demonstrate one emotion through gestures but indicate that it is insincere/being mocked/etc. via vocal cues, even.
Not to mention the degree to which simultaneously tracking face and subtitles makes you likely to miss parts of either or both.
Anyway my theory is that sign language interpreters may be much better at this because sign language uses the same areas of the brain as speaking[1] so they're able to listen and sign much more intuitively than typing. Think if you were able to listen and speak at the same time without your "speech" drowning out what you are listening to.
[1] https://maxplanckneuroscience.org/language-is-more-than-spea...
On the other hand, signing involves actual translation, not just transcription, which is much more likely to drop meaning or introduce confusion. Translation is already hard enough, and live translation is a whole other level of difficulty.
However, I understand that it's much easier to be expressive in sign language. Non-verbal language used by the speaker - sarcasm, tone, inflection - either translate badly, or get lost entirely when transliterating into subtitles. A talented sign-language translator is able to carry this over much better.
Now, you’re getting the inflection of the interpreter and not the speaker (derivative). Certainly you’re not hearing inflection on the original orator, either, so maybe it’s a mixed bag.
Subtitles in general, and live captioning especially, avoid editorializing or taking creative license- they're literal translations of words without other cues added in.
One nice exception to this has been the community subtitling work involved in various Taskmaster spinoff series, where explanations for cultural jokes or idioms are added into the subtitles for foreign audiences, especially when the joke is a pun or relies on a mispronounced word to make sense.
Live subtitling (on the BBC at least) is mainly done using re-speaking and voice recognition, rather than typing.
Interesting side note: if ever subtitles are turned off, or we are watching TV elsewhere, me and my wife can't 'hear' well. Even if the volume is up. Like we've untrained our ability...
It's way worse than even using a cheap computer with open source solutions - it's strange no one at the BBC decides to resolve this as it would be easy and could easily give the public a far better result. Even if you took a hit on the most obscure words, off the shelf would outperform the current process by a country mile.
But in any case, deaf people still have the need to practice reading their language, so removing it from everywhere except IRL conversations might be detrimental to them
For someone who is profoundly deaf from birth and who can't lipread, the way we speak and write is a massive struggle. Cochlear implants before a year old are much more common now, while the brain is still more malleable, so there's maybe less and less deaf people who are totally profoundly deaf and you may not realise what it's like for them if you never come across them.
https://www.british-sign.co.uk/what-is-british-sign-language...
Now imagine trying to learn how to do that when you have never heard any words spoken out loud.
People who are deaf from birth often have a lot of difficulty with spelling and reading, because both skills are closely connected to saying and hearing words. Connecting written words to lip movements (which is kind of the closest thing to 'phonics' for a deaf person) is lossy - the letter-to-lip connections are fuzzier than letter-to-sound, and lip-to-letter is very ambiguous.
Subtitles are great for people who are confident and comfortable readers - say, people who have become deaf due to age - but for some deaf people following subtitles can be like asking someone who's dyslexic to quickly read a sentence out loud.
Deaf people who speak sign language natively approach English as a second language. And it is hard to learn a spoken language when deaf. English literacy rates among ASL native speakers are rather low.
I work in a related industry so fully understand how these situations come to pass, but as a user it’s frustrating to say the least.
CC is a bit of an Americanism, perhaps it is running more directly though some Apple playback code that is more particular about subtitle formats?
I suspect the ultimate case is probably low usage statistics not making it a priority. The icon / BBC logo didn't update at the same time as the iOS version, so I suspect its a separate codebase for some reason?
I’m guessing there are some complications hooking Apple TV’s native subtitles APIs to relevant web APIs, and low usage statistics doesn’t help prioritising fixing the issue. Although the rumour is that they are working on a completely new Apple TV app.
A simple guide on words to avoid in government - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34104530
I recently tried using bazarr to auto-sync subtitles, thinking that for some reason the autosync would improve things, even though I usually didn't have any problems. Well, after that, all my subtitles were horribly out of sync. FFsubsync did not work as magically as I expected. I ended up just resetting them all to their original versions and disabling automatic subtitle synchronization, which I will only attempt to use if the subs are out of sync for some reason.
Note that I did not use ffsubsync directly, but IIRC that is what bazarr uses behind the scenes when "sync subtitles based on audio file instead of embedded subtitles" is checked.
The reason I even noticed this with BBC is because I was interviewed by Reuters a few years ago and the footage was spread through news throughout the world both online and on broadcast TV.
A friend from the UK sent me a screenshot where the BBC had captioned me. They were the only channel to do this (that I saw or heard about) I'm Canadian, and we tend to have one of the easiest to understand clearly spoken accents. So it surprised me that BBC went to the trouble of adding captions.
This makes sense now.
Netflix subtitles are HDR maximum white. On a modern TV while watching dark scenes like in the House of Dragons, it's like trying to look into a cave while someone is shining an LED torch in your face.
Oh, and they won't let you chose arbitrary subtitle languages.
Someone at Netflix wrote the code -- it wasn't an accident! -- to deliberately restrict the available languages to English for the the Hearing Impaired plus four of the most common local languages.
Not speaking one of those four? Tough titties.
Would you like to see English subtitles without "Bang!", "Loud breathing", and "Somber music"?
Haha.. no.
Someone made decisions at Netflix that made sense to them, and no one else.
I remember sitting in a hostel common room the day after Mark Duggan was murdered[1] and half joking "Are they giving that Scottish guy subtitles as a joke?" and being told "This is a very serious situation".
The previous night, the "mates" had been "joshing" me about how much more violent America is... then their eyes went wide when I was like "Well, that's a BRITISH cop car on fire, I'm switching to water... it's gonna be fun finding our way home... doesn't the queen live near here?"
(To be fair, the "chavs" were very respectful once they heard an American accent and let us walk home, but part of that may have been because they didn't grok that they check us for guns at the airport and that rumors every bald black clad hacker is in the CIA are greatly exaggerated so they totally could have knifed us all and taken our iPods, lolllll.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Mark_Duggan#Shooti...