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Comment by mekoka | Hacker News Reader

Disclaimer: this is by no mean an endorsement of plagiarism in any of its forms.

It is one thing to catch someone plagiarizing an already fake essay. In my opinion though, exposing the cheater on the Internet by name is a punishment with far more severe consequences, that does not exactly fit the crime. Furthermore, we're not even assured that the student managed to get a passing grade for his version of the paper. If he did, maybe his teacher was also part of the problem.

This type of insensitive public lynching is so reminiscent of primary school. Fortunately, we grow up, develop a conscience and learn to regret some of the stupid acts we took, just because we could, that still reverberate in others in present days.

Before blowing your horn, please make sure that you're actually righting a wrong and are not causing more damage than you're repairing.

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I can't imagine in what world plagiarism in college should be treated as some private affair that should be kept secret.

College students are adults. Plagiarism in order to achieve a college degree fraudulently is worthy of public attention.

Edit: note, "public attention" != "mob of ruthless assholes destroying someone's life".

Many records can be expunged after a while. There are recourses for offenders to make amend and with time, find the straight path.

The Internet is like a bell, you can't just unring it.

That's not especially true, actually. If something on the internet receives enough public attention it never dies, but lots of unnoticed and uncontroversial things just rot away quietly without anyone caring or being the wiser.

There is a difference between:

1. This alleged plagiarist’s college convicting him and publicizing the fact that he has been judged a plagiarist by due process, and: 2. A public accusation of plagiarism without process of any kind.

Public attention to a conviction is entirely different from public attention to an accusation. I’m with you if you want convictions by due process of plagiarism in college to be worthy of public attention. I am not in favour of accusations like this to be brandished so enthusiastically.

In general I agree with you in regards to accusations vs. due process. But in a plagiarism case like this, it's hard to imagine a situation in which the accusation isn't true. If the essay was factual, the student could claim that the similarity between the essays was coincidental, but an essay which just happens to contain the same made-up facts as the original? That's proof enough for me.

How is it proof enough for you when you haven’t even heard what this wretched person has to say in their defence? Imagine you were a juror. Having heard the prosecution, would you tell the defence that they are wasting their breath calling their own witnesses?

I don’t know if you intended to scare me out of my skin, but I find that phrase chilling. Men have been lynched and hanged without trial given that very same sentiment.

Maybe you're right and I'm being a bit heavy-handed here. But if I painted a painting or released a song that showed up in someone else's portfolio, I wouldn't think twice about writing a blog post naming them. This doesn't really seem much different to me.

Accusing someone of plagiarism on the Internet and sentencing someone to death are such completely different scenarios that I have a hard time comparing the two.

edit: Upon further reflection, I do think that creating a honeypot essay for the sole purpose of shaming whoever copies it does seem rather malicious to me. However, I'm speaking more about the general case of publicly naming plagiarists than this particular witch-hunt.

I think we’re talking at cross purposes. I agree that a lynch mob is a heavy-handed comparison. I am trying to speak to what we do when we encounter the accusation, rather than whether the accusation should be made. I amy not be clear about that, and of course I may not be right.

Agreed. Thanks for clarifying.

I wouldn't hang this guy from a tree if that's what you're asking.

In terms of discussion and priority, I find it hard to give a plagiarism case equal worth to any number of social and political controversies that grace the front page of HN, or any reputable news site for that matter.

Plagiarism is a matter for the plagiarist, their employer or their institution, and the person whose work was copied (at a stretch). It's not the responsibility of a vigilante or a mob to chase up and vilify someone who has made an entirely academic mistake, deliberately or not.

That it's proof enough for you, or me, or anyone in this thread, is irrelevant, unless you're one of the three aforementioned parties involved. What influence do you or I have on their academic conduct? That's the teacher's, tutor's, or lecturer's job.

And since I'm overlooking the fact that plagiarism in itself is a form of copyright infringement, I'll posit this: people are against SOPA because it bypasses due process and presumes guilt, as decided entirely by the self-certified victim. How is a name-and-shame post like this, where the accused has had no opportunity to defend themselves or explain, any better? Were they even made aware of this beforehand?

Does anyone even know under what circumstances this happened either? Because an undergrad copying an article means absolutely nothing compared to a PhD doing the same.

Certainly there is a continuum in such matters. Some accusations deserve to be kept out of the public eyes. But I don't think it's at all reasonable to imagine that we can, or should, live in a world where all of our shames are private and outed only through a laborious and secretive trial process.

The flaws of the "court of opinion" are many and worthy of concern, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to hide any mention of blatant wrong-doing.

This essay isn't a public denouncement, it's merely presenting information. Is this a call to a lynching? "Aaron Kerzner of Boston, I blow my nose at you."

Yes, I agree with you again. The author of this post is just one person. I am not saying whether he should or shouldn’t name this person or link to a web page that appears to be an essay submitted as part of course work.

I am only speaking to what we should do in response, namely laugh uproariously at what appears to be a finely crafted piece of work, and use it as a catalysts for serious discussion about where our institutions of higher education are failing, and eschew debating this named person’s crimes or character. I think the essay would be just as thought-provoking if it left the person’s name out, it would still pose difficult and important questions:

How does such an essay get accepted?

If someone cheats and gets a degree, how do they prosper in life? Should there be a correlation between honest work on a degree and success? If not, why do we care about the degree?

How much of submitting an essay is composing the essay, and how much is mechanically rearranging existing ideas into a form that passes the professorial filter?

Is there a Turing Test going on here? If a professor can’t tell the original works apart from the plagiarized ones, is the test flawed, or is there really no distinction between the good and bad students?

I really like the post, it provides much grist for my Olde Mill, which lies just west of the Forest of Runnymede.

Indeed. For myself I prefer to be as open minded and forgiving of others as possible.

In this particular case the evidence seems rather damning, but there can always be plenty we aren't aware of, life is complicated. Personally I hope the accused can recover from this, though in general I think that if more college students realized that the shame of plagiarism could come back and bite them in the ass later in life that would probably be a good thing. College isn't play time. Nor should it be training wheels for adulthood.

> If someone cheats and gets a degree, how do they prosper in life?

You work in tech? You've seen countless idiots who blatantly lie to get jobs? You've seen them get promoted (so they can no longer do harm, or because they're really good at lying) while talented people have to stick around to fix the problems and carry the slack?

Cheats prosper.

The beauty of this whole thing is that we're parsing due process responsibilities over an allegation of plagiarization of an essay on the Magna Carta, one of the founding moments in the history of due process.

A public accusation requires no due process. If the named student wants legal redress, let him sue for defamation.

And there's a difference between just accusing someone and linking to that person's public posting of the essay.

Process is always warranted in the case of punishment, but when someone makes the evidence of their wrongdoing public on the internet, it's silly to act like it's some kind of witch-hunt or lynching to point it out.

Due process? The guy posted the essay online for the world to see. What more do you want before coming out and saying he did this?

As programmers who have college degrees and have to pass FizzBuzz at job interviews, I think we all have a low opinion of how good college degrees are. As such, I think cheating on a college degree is similar to cheating on an exam when you're 13. C'mon, it's not that important that you got it fraudulently.

Maybe part of the reason so many college-educated programmers can't pass FizzBuzz is because a lot of them cheated?

That could be the case with some people, but cheating is not that rife. The amount of rubbish programmers is massive. There are loads of students who don't cheat, and can't programme, but can get a CompSci degree.

As such, I think cheating on a college degree is similar to cheating on an exam when you're 13. C'mon, it's not that important that you got it fraudulently.

I'd say the main issue here is not that cheating on a college degree indicates a lack of competence. Rather, it indicates a lack of trustworthiness. This is just as serious of a shortcoming.

If the teacher didn't bother enough to read the paper and fail him, maybe he deserves the degree that he got.

Though someone stated that (not sure if this is fact) there is no statute of limitations on plagiarism, I feel like when it comes to college papers there should be.

Regardless of the fact that legally, college students are adults, they are still very prone to making mistakes. I see no reason to punish this one simply because he had the misfortune of copying a paper from an internet blogger.

"Regardless of the fact that legally, college students are adults, they are still very prone to making mistakes."

How is it that you define wholesale copying of someone else's work and passing it off as your own a "mistake"? You might as well call burglary a "mistake".

"I see no reason to punish this one simply because he had the misfortune of copying a paper from an internet blogger."

Holy chutzpah Batman! He chose of his own free will to copy someone's work rather than do the work himself (which is CLEARLY against the rules). But because the person he copied from is a blogger who has the means to expose his misdeeds, that's unfair?

"Misfortune"? Seriously?

I'd like to see the teacher and school named too. If 1 plagiarist in a million is publicly ripped to shreds, it won't make a difference. If a school that possibly graduates thousands of plagiarists is discredited, more professors might actually do their jobs.

I don't think it's unethical to cheat if cheating becomes the norm. At some point, it becomes the fault of the system, not the participants, and the schools are higher up the food chain.

Punching a hole in the wall is a mistake. Cheating on your wife is a mistake. Steering your car into a ditch, or into another car, is a mistake. People can do these things out of a sudden lapse of attention or outburst of emotion. Plagiarism isn't a mistake, it's premeditated and everyone knows not to do it.

Cheating on your wife is a mistake

I can't imagine the circumstances where that's true. In general, you'd have at least a few hours to decide and change your mind. In most cases it wouldn't happen at all unless you actively show your interest in that other person.

Maybe when you're drunk and a lady just throws herself at you out of nowhere? I don't know how I would call such a person though ... lucky bastard?

Humans are hard wired to eat, fuck, fight and flee; everything else takes deliberation. That said, you may be right and I'm not inclined to quibble this particular point :)

I disagree: the embarrassment of being publicly outed is entirely justified for a plagiarist. It's not a lynching if you tied your own noose!

maybe announcing it to the rest of his class would be a justified "public outting." or announcing it in a campus publication. but this goes way, way beyond that.

i think it's kind of scary how quick people are nowadays to froth at the mouth and go crazy with the big-scale internet public shaming. one of the downsides of the rise of social-media, i guess

Are you being serious? That's just a slap on the wrist, for what appears to be academic fraud.

I would cancel his degree and send a notice to his current employers.

@ InclinedPlane 3:

so would i.

i was just pointing out that there are different degrees of public outing. revoking his degree, getting him fired, and ruining his reputation with hsi colleagues is sufficient...no need to make him an international internet villain

I don't know about you, but getting fired and having my professional reputation ruined is a fair bit worse than being an "internet villain".

Plagiarism is sometimes punished with the academic death penalty. If you were a journalist who plagiarized in the last 10 years then your career is over.

Ever heard of benefit of the doubt, or extenuating circumstances?

Ok, we know the guy cheated on this paper.

There's a whole lot we don't know though: who is this guy? what led to the cheating? was it his first offense? is this paper really relevant to his professional career? was he looking to profit from it?

Many more things we don't know and for which it's usually better to handle such things away from the Internet.

Don't steal other people's work.

There is no legitimate reason to do so. EVER.

For one, I'm not excusing the crime, I'm merely stating that the punishment should fit. Secondly, you sound pretty adamant in your declaration. You know, having had my share of experience with the human element, I'm sometimes curious with the attitude of the morally superior people who can't see shades of gray and are so willing to cast the first stone. I wonder what we would uncover if we were to put their own lives under the magnifier.

>I wonder what we would uncover if we were to put their own lives under the magnifier.

I'm unclear as to what this has to do with the fact that plagiarism is always wrong, 100% of the time. Just because one may be guilty of doing something they know is wrong doesn't mean their declaration of that action being wrong is somehow invalid.

Telling people about something you actually did is not punishment, let alone a public lynching. There is no expectation of privacy whatsoever here.

One of the important causes of doubt, even after we are sure that laughable plagiarism has occurred, is whether we've identified the right person. It seems that the moron thief posted this essay under his own name somewhere, which is quite unambiguous. But then we also see a LinkedIn account. Someone else will probably write down a Facebook account, someone else a Skype name, etc etc. Someone along the way will get it wrong, and if the hordes at reddit or 4chan happen to pick up on the story, they could easily do something damaging to the wrong person.

agreed...if you think the kid should be punished, contact the professor or the school. no need for the frenzy in the comments section, with people trying to make this a number-one search result

Calling someone out for misdeeds is covered under libel laws.

Give the guy due process at least....

Sorry, had to add that

No need to apologize. Trail and conviction by mob is odious whether the mob is a collection of allegedly intelligent and educated hackers or whether it’s beer-guzzling trailer-trash.

The bottom line is, you have an accusation on the Internet without the benefit of an accused person facing their accusers, without a process for presenting and evaluating evidence in context, and without any kind of judge or referee in place to rule on any issues of admissibility or propriety.

We get together and lament how places like Fox news can distort the truth and present biased cases against people. And then when something comes along and plays to our prejudices, we whip out the torches and pitchforks, planning to ruin the accused plagiarizer and whatever professor may or may not have accepted this ridiculous essay.

Quite honestly, I find the thought of this person suffering in the future when they apply for a job somewhere entirely repugnant. Now, if there is some process and he is expelled from school or censured on his academic record, let him explain that to whomever asks. But the idea of having to defend himself against mob sentiment is a giant step backwards to frontier justice.

People fuss and fret over surrendering their liberties to the TSA. We should think about what part of civilized behaviour we voluntarily surrender when we act like this.

I was actually apologizing for the due process reference since it was a concept formed from the Magna Carta, and I wasn't necessarily adding to the discussion.

But I do fully agree he should have due process, for all we know he was punished already by his university (though I don't know why they would leave the essay posted online...)

"t is one thing to catch someone plagiarizing an already fake essay. In my opinion though, exposing the cheater on the Internet by name is a punishment with far more severe consequences, that does not exactly fit the crime."

Honestly, after seeing the people here on HN crucify the guy here: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/274100/20111229/ocean-market...

I will be surprised if anyone has this same opinion.

"This type of insensitive public lynching is so reminiscent of primary school."

My thoughts exactly..

Paul Christophoro is bipolar, and currently undergoing a manic episode. He needs medical attention.

See this reddit comment [1] by his sucessor as PR guy for the maker of the Avenger Controller.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/nw1vm/ama_the_guy_who_...

While I agree with you that the punishment Paul Christophoro got from the internet is too severe for the crime being a bully (and bad at his job), please don't make a medical diagnosis on the basis of a reddit comment from someone else describing a phone call. Your profile says you are a medical doctor, you really should know better.

From the mentioned post:

> In our conversations, he has compared himself to no less than Howard Stern and Charlie Sheen. He has proclaimed himself to be the biggest thing on the internet, and has repeatedly touted how much power he thinks he now has with the press. He told me tonight "if they fuck with me, I got all these websites all over me. Whatever I tell them to write, they write." He says that he has a TV interview with SPIKE TV next week. I look forward to him telling them what to do and what to edit into their coverage. Tonight, he reiterated that in unmistakable, forceful terms.

> His abrupt swings in tone and mood were astoundingly rapid. He told me he would burn the company to the ground and destroy everyone associated with it, including me, he regretted to inform me. "I know you're just a guy doing a job and you don't know any better. I'm gonna ruin your life if I have to."

I shouldn't have used the affirmative, but it is highly probable. Megalomania and rapid mood swings are serious telltale signs.

Another possible cause for mania would be side effects of drugs. You can read in this interview[1] that he takes testosterone to correct a deficiency, it could also be the culprit.

[1] http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/4238/article/oceanstrata...

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