Ask HN: How to build F-You Skills | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to build F-You Skills

72 pointslakevieew88 comments

The past few months have been stressful for most people in the tech industry owing to mass layoffs everywhere. Luckily, I survived the layoffs at my company. But I was very anxious during the period it was announced and it affected my mental health quite a bit.

However, on talking to a few other engineers at my company, I realized not everyone was as stressed. They are confident in their skills to get a new equivalent job which would easily support their current lifestyle, even in the current market. They have what I would call, "F-You Skills - Enough skills to know that you would never have to worry about money in your life", a spin on the more commonly known term "F-You Money" [1].

I was wondering if HN users ever think of their own skills in this context. If yes, how should one go about building these skills.

To be clear, I am not talking about interviewing skills, which are also equally important. But I am more interested in technical skills that people believe will easily fetch them "decent money" [2] in any scenario in the short term future.

[1] F-You Money means "Enough money to leave one's job, etc. and enjoy the lifestyle of one's choice" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fuck_you_money

[2] not insane money to retire early, but good enough to support their current lifestyle.

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Good reputation and a healthy network.

Having the skills to do the technical work is only part of the answer. I've met a lot of brilliant programmers in my career who were not good at following through on commitments, delivering work, working with others, or leaving old workplaces without burning bridges.

On the other hand, I've known a lot of good-but-not-great programmers who were great to work with, made sure they got their work done to good standards, worked hard to overcome skill gaps or looming deadlines when necessary, and left a good impression everywhere they went.

The latter group (good reputation, good communication, good networking) will always have a list of people happy to hire them back. That's what you want.

Also, avoid the trap of thinking that social skills are "bullshit" or other cynical dismissals. Business is more than just writing code and avoiding peers. Results are delivered by teams, not individuals. Knowing how to be a good team member is a crucial skill.

I'm a tech generalist and this is so so right.

If I could sum it up in a sentence it would be "be more helpful than everyone else". Be the person that (generally) says yes, not no. Stretch your boundaries a little, chip in and help even if it's not strictly your job. Share your knowledge. Be friendly and open. Do what you said you'd do when you said you'd do it. That last point is so obvious as to be inane but we all know people who don't do it.

On the flip side, don't be that person who loses their shit when something goes wrong. Don't be the one who is always complaining that "this place is [some negative emotion]". Don't be the one who doesn't do some piece of work on a point of order even though someone else is depending on the result. Everyone hears about those people, and everyone avoids them. Life's too short to work with someone like that, even if they're technically amazing.

I live in a fairly small Australian city and there are circles of people who just seem to follow each other around. Being in one of those circles -- which are informal, to be clear -- is invaluable. You get there by being a) good at what you do and b) really easy to work with.

The last time I got a job by searching a contract jobs website was in 2007. Everything since then has been because of who I know.

Addendum: this takes time, obviously. You're building a reputation. I'm 46. You can't do this overnight but, that said, I took a grad in 2021 and she was everything I've said is good and she's already "in the crew".

>the trap of thinking that social skills are "bullshit"

At some point I thought this way because I wasn’t good at them and was too anxious to even attempt to work on them.

Then I realized

- ‘programming’ humans is really fun, especially when you can improve them :)

- everything else you and I do in our lives is related (directly or indirectly) to social status, so why not eliminate inefficiencies by using social skills to do the social stuff instead of lossily via technical skills and money

Do you have any resources you might recommend?

Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39330937-the-laws-of-hum...

"Programming other people to be better" sounds like a really egocentric way to approach people skills. If you only see others as objects who can either help or hinder you get what you want, its going to catch up sooner or later.

Maybe its better to work on developing empathy? Leadership and Self Deception is a decent book on people skills that really emphasizes this approach.

I do feel that I have "FU Skills", and probably have for a good 10+ years (I'm in my early 40s now).

However, getting jobs is more than that. Or, rather, getting and keeping a job is more than that, and that's where I worry I'm lacking sometimes. While I wouldn't flat-out say I don't work well with others, my patience has gradually gotten worse and worse over the years. At my last company, I think I likely developed a reputation as someone who preferred to isolate himself, someone who should be exempt from any established company processes (stuff I always felt hamstrung me), someone who prefers to just be given a thorny problem and then left alone, unaccountable, until it's done.

Certainly what I do (and how I prefer to work) can have value, but it has less and less value as a company grows and relies more on predictability and consistency to get work done.

Over the past year and half or so, a lot of the longer-tenured folks (including me) left the company I was working at. I've kept track of where a lot of my former colleagues have gone, including those who were (and still are) in management positions, and sometimes I question how many of those people would really want to hire me at their new company. While I do good work, I could see them thinking that I can be hard to work with at times, or that I might not mesh well with the rest of their team.

It's possible I'm coming down too hard on myself, and it's not that bad. But it's something to consider: having technical skills is great, but it's not the whole picture when it comes to being easily employable.

As to the root of your issue, the stress and anxiety when things are bad, I think the best thing to do is remove external control over your destiny. Live well within your means, and save as much money as you can. If you have enough savings so that being unemployed for a year or more isn't going to put a strain on your finances or require you to change your lifestyle, then that should reduce your anxiety level quite a bit.

Are you me? This is uncannily like my experience.

At least you recognize this issue and can expressly mention it if you ever need to lean on someone, detailing that you identified and are working to correct the problem.

Can we start a support group for this, please?

I think “AA” is already taken.

For real though, thanks for mentioning this. It is something I struggle with. I know I’m not “supposed” to be like that. I read the comments in HN. I read the books. I read the blog posts. Hell, my undergrad was at Temple U’s college of education in small group dynamics and conflict resolution. I know how I am “supposed” to act. And yet, I am still “that guy” as if being “that guy” were my job.

> At my last company, I think I likely developed a reputation as someone who preferred to isolate himself, someone who should be exempt from any established company processes

This may be, in part, caused by the dynamics of that one particular workplace. It does not have to mean that “you are that guy” from not on. You may want to engage more the next place because the people and the culture is different.

> I question how many of those people would really want to hire me at their new company

Whatever the impression you left is, this is not you. It’s a footprint of you interacting with particular individuals under a particular context. The real you is not constrained to repeat.

> having technical skills is great, but it's not the whole picture when it comes to being easily employable.

This is great advice.

1. Live below your means.

2. Have 6+ months living expenses in cash equivalent.

3. Build retirement / investment savings.

4. Build skills and be able to demonstrate you can ship product.

I've seen many co-workers get laid off in my career, they all landed back on their feet.

>1. Live below your means.

Take this seriously. Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund. In time you'll have enough money to not fear a job loss. There's a lot of freedom in that. Keep in mind that most of the stuff you want ends up in the trash or on some shelf collecting dust. So, think twice about what you buy.

> Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund.

That depends on what you eventually want to use the money for. Don't put your 6 month emergency fund in stocks or index funds! If you get laid off along with everyone else, stocks will be down, and that means the money you set aside for an emergency is gone!

Good point, a six month emergency fund needs to be easy to access and in a safe savings' place.

Agreed, plus: 5. Be a gracious human being regardless of context. Memories are long-term things.

For those seeking official sources of direction which include these points and more I highly encourage starting with the basics of financial management. While these basics lead into many other areas of complex understanding always start with the basics. This one college class guided me more than any other outside of my career path of software development and I still have that college book. Financial management should be taught starting in elementary school but getting it into high school curriculums is good a start.

"In the last two years, five states — Ohio, Mississippi, North Carolina, Nebraska and Rhode Island — passed legislation requiring that students take a full semester standalone personal finance education course in high school, doubling the total number of states with such a mandate."

> Live below your means.

To me, this is the hardest to do. In the U.S., this means going against society's narrative that more/better material things will make you happier. Beyond a certain amount of income, material gains lose their material benefit, but it's hard to detach yourself from society's thinking that you'll be happier if you have a $130k car instead of a $30k one.

One thing I like to remember is that billionaires are no happier than people who make a little more than ends meat. Bezos and Gates got divorced in the past few years. Musk is obviously searching for happiness and meaning to little avail. I know lots of people on fairly meager incomes who are much happier than these men.

As someone who in the past year who with my wife has gotten rid of our house, cars and everything else that couldn’t fit in three suitcases and now spend six months a year flying across the US staying in hotels and the other half staying in what would usually be a second home/investment property in Florida (warmest place you can stay in the US and state income tax free) , we gave up keeping up with anyone. Our monthly expenses didn’t increase and is actually trending down.

I wonder if the confidence OP is detecting from their collegues is more due to unspoken 1, 2 and 3 rather than the explicitly mentioned 4. In our society it's considered kind of gauche to say something like "I could take a 100k pay cut and still pay the bills" or "I've got enough savings to go years without a job" but for many software engineers living well below their means these could easily be true. There are lots of people out there making $200k/year and spending less than $40k/year, particularly people without kids.

Who are these people living on $40k/yr, and what size cardboard box do they live in?

With a roommate, a paid off used car, and a not extravagant lifestyle in a smaller city/town, it's not impossible. It ain't as easy as it was ~8 years ago when I was doing that though

That’s not living if you’re making 200k a year. A roommate? Seriously?

Maybe this is an American thing? I lived with roommates until mid-thirties, was pretty normal in London.

Have you never lived in the SF bay area? I had multiple friends colleagues who lived with housemates while making six figures in software jobs. It's very normal.

40 might be a bit of a stretch with inflation, but even with 4 kids and a dog my yearly expenditures to live in a very nice (3800 sqft) house with 2 (paid for) cars is only about $67k/year.

$37k mortgage $15k bills - electric, water, Internet, car insurance, cell phones, etc. $15k - food, gasoline, clothing, haircuts, other "necessities" (many of which are not)

Then of course there's vacations, Christmas/birthdays, and unexpected large purchases (e.g. the out of warranty laptop broke), so maybe add on another $10k?

But we could also easily tighten the belt a bit and cut those bottom 2 items to $20k with only a little bit of pain.

When you're walking home after taxes with $175k/year you definitely get a little flabby on what should be sensible cost cutting (e.g. I'm sure I'm paying a few hundred dollars a year for streaming/subscription services I don't use enough to justify, but it's not worth the hassle.)

We are of course extremely privileged to not have any major medical issues, a good support system for child care, 2 work from home parents, and to have somehow avoided most of the crazy tuition hikes of the 21st century.

> only about $67k/year.

Which is >100k/year before tax which is well above median household earnings.

Not to mention I see no mention of healthcare costs. I - a single 30-something with some chronic issues, easily spend $5k on healthcare a year - more if I get hospitalized, which has happened 3 times in the decade.

That’s not even counting the portion that comes out of my check.

What kind of answer are you looking for? There are people who live on less than $40k without even meaning to. It's not an outrageous number, but sure, would be harder with chronic health issues and so-so insurance.

Right, but we're also an above median family size (again: 4 kids.)

I could easily drop 20-25k from that spending if we didn't have kids - in fact, at the time I had my first kid, my mortgage was $24k/year, my bills were nearly 40% lower than they are now, and I didn't track food and clothes budgets back then but even if they were 80% of present day levels (I suspect it was much lower) that'd put us right around $40k/year.

But I also am on the real estate property ladder, so I think it'd be foolish for me to spend any less of our income on our housing than I do, so counting it as pure "expenditure" is a bit misleading.

Also since someone asked this year I paid $2,200 in healthcare distributions on top of $750 annual premiums.

Thanks for putting all the numbers down its always interesting. I'm jealous and scared of having 4 kids. :)

> 1. Live below your means.

Advice from someone who didn't do this and should now have waaaaaaaay more savings than he does: don't reduce your spending on experiences (dinner, drinks with friends, holidays), but try to reduce your spending on objects.

It is so true that the dopamine hit from buying a thing is short-lived. Now you have that thing, which you probably won't use all that much, and you have to carry it around your life. It wasn't worth it.

Of course this applies more to more expensive objects. Cars boggle my mind. I'm lucky enough to live somewhere that I can walk or cycle everywhere, but still. If I needed a car, people spend what? A hundred k on a fucking Toyota? Are you out of your goddamned mind?

I agree experiences are what make a life, but things are relatively cheap, and services are expensive. The best thing to save on is paying less rent, better financed mortgage, shop around for cheaper insurance, etc, etc.

For things, focus on tools that help you do more, save time, etc, not bling, and buy the best quality you can afford. Specifically go for quality, not just the most expensive, which will have often have added bling and exclusive price tags to attract people with more money than care.

I might even disagree with 'less rent' (although better finance for sure, yes).

Living somewhere nice, that isn't old and moldy, that doesn't leak, that isn't cold in winter and hot in summer, that is close to amenities, is a massive quality of life improvement.

Things might be relatively cheap as single items, but the cost of them all adds up. And I'd still say, question every purchase. I mean don't agonise over it, but if you can get in to the habit of generally not just buying shit all the time, I think you'll be better for it.

Yes, of course, I don't mean live in squalor, but don't be extravagant and showy with your place, get something smaller for example.

I think a lot of younger people in the workforce today have never witnessed a bear market or a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash and to a lesser extent the 2008 one. I'd argue that no amount of "skills" or networking are going to help in that macroeconomic environment. Instead, you need an F-you financial cushion because you _will_ be helplessly out of work for an extended period, should another crash come. Make hay while the sun shines.

> a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash

I lost my job during the .com bust, in 2002, I think. There were plenty of software development jobs, even within my city. I was pretty junior, no CS degree (but I did have a science bachelors). I applied to one or two a week, found a job within three or four months. I was also looking for work sometime around 2009. Again, found a job within four to six months, although I was a little choosier then. Ended up with a contract job at BigCo and they hired me W2 six months or so later. During a downturn contract work can be more available, because BigCo doesn't have a budget for new hires (= can't easily downsize), but part of what contractors are selling is that you can end the contract tomorrow and they say "it's been a pleasure, let me know if you have anything I can help with in the future".

All that to say, having lived through the worst downturn, I think a tech downturn where literally nobody is hiring is unlikely. Of course, a financial cushion is always wise.

> found a job within three or four months

I think this is unexpected for lots of young developers out there. Lots of devs have experienced nothing other than multiple offers within a few weeks of looking.

Skills won't save you from uncertainty or anxiety. Neither will experience, education, politics (bullshitting or networking), etc. Neither will income or savings or assets.

The only thing that actually helps is to not amplify your emotional reactions, and instead encourage them to quiesce. The standard cognitive approaches are to consider yourself lucky (by thinking of those less lucky), or to see the situation as transitory, or just distract yourself. However, cognitive approaches are the cart leading the horse; it's more direct to pay attention to the emotion until it dissolves.

More broadly, there are plenty of less dynamic industries, where loyalty matters most and you get security. But you chose tech typically to make a certain kind of difference, and it's worth the risk and anxiety. You're part of the community only after you've been through the suffering and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :)

> and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :)

This was the missing piece for me during the first decade of my career. It's broadly applicable to most human endeavors.

I’ve been developing since Middle School and got steadily promoted until 2008 when I was laid off during the economic collapse. I applied to dozens of companies and couldn’t get a response, or if I did they said hiring was paused.

So, I started my own web dev company and grew it from myself to 20 full time employees in ~4 years before selling it.

I thought I had FU skills back in 2008 and maybe I did, but it was no match for the macro economic climate.

The fallback might not be another full time job, but instead freelancing or starting your own company.

The thing that helped me the most was building a “FU Network”. Keep in touch with past coworkers and clients and do good work consistently. They were there for me when I needed them most.

I have found the ability to consistently make my own dollar, even if it is a pittance, makes me a more attractive candidate than most. I’ve never had a runaway business success, but the acumen needed set all of a money making operation in motion sets me apart. Hopefully they become profitable so that formal employment is no longer needed, but in the meanwhile it’s kept food on the table by the ordinary means.

I prefer not to call it "F-You Money" or an "F-You Mindset."

Instead, I like to think of it in terms of having the ability to walk away with your head held high, rather than your middle finger held high. In other words, when they take the low ground, you continue to take the high ground -- right on out the door.

To do this, I think most people can rely on two objective values and one psychological one.

The two objective values are:

1) knowing what you're worth in the current market (e.g. by regularly interviewing, even when you're not actively looking), and

2) having sufficient savings to cover your expenses until your next job starts.

The psychological value is harder to work out, but it has to do with developing a clear sense of your own self-worth and identifying the sort of treatment within the workplace that you will and will not tolerate. I don't mean acting like a prima donna and viewing certain work as beneath you. I mean stuff like if a toxic boss is fundamentally mistreating you, or if you're promised a certain set of working hours or working conditions and then find out that it was an empty promise.

From my experience, people who don’t have to worry are either have to maintain legacy stuff nobody else wants to do or they are cutting edge people working on the latest and greatest.

So my advice, build your skillset on either one of those.

1. develop a good professional network.

that's the best F-You skill you can ever have IMO. You want to be in a position where if you get laid off you make a phone call while walking out and have another job that very day.

You can start this as simply as messaging people you work with or use to work with on linkedin.

I guess it all depends on the current demand. I remember a few years ago there was a huge shortage of devops in my area (central europe). Anyone, even with limited experience and skills (often after a few months of bootcamp training) could get a well paying job. Now the craze is about k8s and developing software in the cloud. So in my area if you have solid k8s experience, even with no network and bad rep you will be swimming in the sea of offers (the culture is different here, usually nobody wants to contact your previous employer).

On the other hand I am doing boring Java development with microservices. I guess there is too much people with similar skillset, I would probably need to interview for a few months before I land an offer (processes are getting longer and longer even in remote EU areas).

Another market trend that I am seeing is security, sec related positions often pay you 30% more than regular dev ones. But this is totally different track that requires a lot of effort to get into.

Your colleagues are talking themselves up. If their skills are that unique and special then they would have a very difficult time finding a suitable job for two reasons, the primary one being that no recruiter would be able understand the value they bring, and the second one being that relatively few companies would need their skillset.

Java and .NET aren't fashionable, but internal apps for many businesses use them. You probably won't use them at cutting edge startups, but they will pay the bills.

You can definitely use them at NYC startups. Very different market vs SV.

Agree with all the advice to grow your savings. I would also add: be intentional about what kind of work you want to do. Seek out this work at your current employer. It's easy to go with the flow and end up doing vague or undifferentiated work, just because no one is looking out for your personal development. Then if you get laid off, or quit, your skills aren't as fresh. Think about your own skills and professional goals, and seek opportunities, at your current or prospective employer, that will help you achieve those goals.

I also agree with all the advice to be kind.

- Don't think much about what you can't control. Focus on what you can control

- As long as you have healthy body, healthy mind, healthy spirituality, money can always be made

- Always be studying

- Don't be ashamed to do low paying jobs, i.e, dishwashing, delivery driving

- Don't follow consumerism. Don't have credit card debt. Don't have student loan debt. Don't have mortgage. If you do, and you can't pay it off, just let it be. Escape to another country, be undocumented, build a new life

- Tell your wife and kids that they need to be ready leave you to a better person that can take care of them if things go south

Basically, just have the attitude "It is what it is, I tried my best".

A lot of our problems in life are because we want this and that. We want a nice house, we want a nice car, we want a beautiful wife, we want kids, we want good career, we want a nice vacation, we want the latest phone, etc. Get rid of your current life style, or just have the attitude "eh, this thing can be gone and I will be okay".

Those aren't that important. Nothing lasts forever. In the end, things happened.

Of course, modern society will break down if all of us think and have this kind of freedom. Society is built upon hard labors of those who have chains like a mortgage.

But you do you. Neither you nor society is all that important. Forget about all of those pressure.

F-You skills are not technical in nature (above a certain level of competence and willingness to work that most people in tech jobs have). They are people skills and a basic safety net.

For me they seem to be:

1. Having an emergency fund and plan that can last you 6-9 months if you get fired or burnt out. Think about your expenses and get rid of ones that you don't want. Plan out if you'd need to downsize some things or make changes. Having a good buffer will help you be less stressed out if your work gets really shitty (you can quit) or if you get fired (you won't be wondering how to pay rent while interviewing).

2. Being generally pleasant at work.

3. Don't spread stress and bad feelings. If you are stressed out and someone asks for help, help them or tell them when you can in the future in a positive way. Don't complain about things over and over.

4. Keep loosely in touch with people you got along with at jobs, you might be able to help each other in the future.

5. Be willing to grind to get a job if your network can't help you in the future. Start practicing interview questions and applying when you notice a lot of frustration in a job, not just when have 100% decided to leave. This will get you prepared and also can help you feel agency that might make you realize you don't want to leave the job.

6. Work on your psychology to gain confidence. You deserve to have a decent life as much as anyone. Your work or pay isn't a reflection of your value, but if you enjoy the work, that's great, it doesn't always happen.

One obvious skill is money management. Anyone who has been at a tech company with competitive compensation for at least a year and doesn't have a minimum of one to two months of runway without unemployment, and far more with, is objectively bad at personal finance and needs to immediately shore up that skill.

Also, realize that the burnt out bum shooting up and shitting out on the street in San Francisco literally has F-you money. It's not really that admirable a goal. You should instead be figuring out what you can do to be useful to others. As an employee, that means being useful to employers. As an entrepreneur that means being useful to some subset of the population at large.

Generally speaking programming proficiency will get you a life of relative comfort, and reliably has through the past several economic downturns. There are lots of ways to specialize if that's what you're interested in. For example SRE skills are in generally wide demand.

Walk through the scenario in detail like it just happened to you. Spend a Friday afternoon convincing yourself you were laid off, and spend the weekend processing and planning your next steps.

By Monday you might wish you had been.

It is less frightening if you can go through the motions and see all the other opportunity.

Live below your means. If you are a software developer with 3-5 years of experience in any major city in the US, you should be making at least twice the median household income for your area.

Live like the median family is living and save your money

On another note: I am if not by title now for the first time by what I do a hands on keyboard developer.

What I don’t do is coding interviews and definitely not senseless “leetCode”. If an interviewer can’t talk to me like an experienced adult where we can see if my experience can add business value and help you solve your real world issues, we don’t need to be talking.

I’m not about to stand there while you judge whether I can reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls on a tightrope.

Yes that mentality got me into $BigTech.

Seriously do not underestimate the need for a strong network.

Having people who trust you and are willing to help you out is a far more potent than having 'X technical skill'. This doesn't necessarily mean going out of your way for 'networking events' or espousing your great and wonderful skills to everyone you meet. It can just mean staying in touch with the people you have enjoyed working with/for.

Keeping your skills is still important, and if you're a curious person you'll probably be doing this anyway. But there are a lot of us curious ppl out there...on the other hand, your network will be unique to you.

The closest thing to a FU skill though is probably COBOL...

You don’t want to specialize without great care. I started as a UNIX admin in 1985. I learned a lot about networking at that first job, and later on, took a job as Wide Area Network engineer at large org. That job was challenging, but not as rewarding, because you could only brag about your feats at work with other WAN guys. Nobody else knew what you were talking about. Everyone else soon tired of the gobbledygook. I went back to being a Linux Sr Admin after 10 years after burning out, and eventually found a good gig where we are appreciated for the value we provide the organization.

Its not something you can change easily but in general you need to be regularly interviewing and changing jobs. I stayed in the same company for 10 years, never interviewing anywhere and then I got laid off. Its nearly impossible to find work when you dont know how to leetcode or sell yourself or be comfortable asking around people you know for job leads.

I think its the people who switch jobs every year or two that are most comfortable finding the next one. OTOH people who have been doing this for 10 years have never seen a bad job market so maybe they have confidence when they shouldn't have.

I worked with some telecom techs who could've literally written their own ticket to some extent just because they knew how to deal with extremely esoteric local problems. They were blue collar guys who stuck with their boss come what may because they were buds but when he left the company... they all eventually evaporated.

There is a more general skillset of being a desirable employee. I had to build this skill up before my tech skills, I have mouths to feed.

Another one is knowing how to “hustle”. If you need money, coming up with plans that might not work is way better than just not doing anything.

When you start at the bottom, always be planning the next move.

It really depends on financial, family and characteristics. For me I'm always worried about financials unless I'm fully covered, which is impossible unless some how I got two millions by wind.

I think there's a lot of people with "F-Skills" in the workplace right now that don't yet realize this attitude isn't as conducive to stable employment as they think it is.

a real factor is that with larger organizations focussed primarily on squirting out glue, people with serious programming skills aren't really that useful anymore.

everyone hated putting up with the leet coder before, and now they don't really need one. they really just want people to consistently and pleasantly phone it in.

The most effective Fyou skill is the skill to live minimally and avoid copying the spending habits of your peers.

not there yet but my goal is to create side income to match my basic needs

I have the fear though due to debt

start your own company

This is statistically the worse advice you can give anyone. A new grad working at any BigTech company could be more secure in a few years.

and you won't get FU skill or FU money. I answered the question.

You can definitely get FU money by making $160K+ straight out of college up to a quarter million a year plus three years later. How much do you think most people make “starting their own business?”

first of all no one's making $160k right out of college. Second of all, no, that's not even FU money. Maybe after a 20 year career, yeah you can retire well.

That’s the return offer one of the interns I mentored got when they came back after they graduated. They had no reason to lie to me. They work remotely and decided to move back in with their parents. But even if they didn’t, they could live some place cheaply.

I don’t work for some hip non profitable startup surviving off of VC money either.

These are standard offers - go to levels.fyi and see what the starting wage is for the BigTech companies are in America.

Some of the younger cohort who are just coming out of college getting FAANG jobs (including the one I work for) are talking about FIRE (financially independent retire early). They are saving/investing $50K+ a year.

It's annoying to argue, but (1) that's an anecdote, not data, (2) levels.fyi is a biased sample of people obsessed with / want to brag about their compensation (like you, because even though this post was about FU 'skills' you started arguing about comp), (3) FU money is in the single digit millions at least, if not $10 million, like I said you may get to that level after 10-20 years with good investments, but it's really not guaranteed. For a startup it's even less guaranteed, but you will certainly get much more than that ($10s of millions at least), faster (5-10 years) if you have a reasonably successful exit. Of course billions if you are a unicorn, so a nice fat tail of upside. (4) This post was about FU skills and not FU money, and the difference between startups and big corps is even starker for that. At big corps you barely do anything for the first two years you get hired, but at startups you are working on something mission critical from the start. It's a much deeper experience, skill-wise. There's really no comparison. So if you're goal is FU skills, you'd get it at a startup much more than a big corp without question.

You really think that it’s some great conspiracy? Any random entry level developer working at any of the big 5 companies will get an offer in the low to mid six figures at least.

Are you that unaware of compensation at any of the top tech companies?

How much do you think they are making?

You don’t need “10-20 million” to live a decent middle class lifestyle in the US.

> For a startup it's even less guaranteed, but you will certainly get much more than that ($10s of millions at least), faster (5-10 years) if you have a reasonably successful exit

Yes all you have to do is choose the one startup out of 10 that don’t outright fail and then choose the subset of those that have an outsized exit.

> At big corps you barely do anything for the first two years you get hired, but at startups you are working on something mission critical from the start

Have you ever worked at any large tech company?

I literally just went to a customer’s site with the former intern I spoke about and they are the only hands on keyboard consultant (I work in the cloud consulting department at $BigTech) of a six figure contract. I was there in an advisory role. All of the new grads go through a six month training program and immediately get put on projects.

In my department they get to learn about working with “cloud technologies” from people who are inarguably the best in the business.

I’m sure people at other big tech companies also learn a lot more about working at scale than you can learn at a tiny company.

Besides you are suffering from severe survivorship bias if you think more than an insignificant percentage of people working at a startup ever leave with any significant amount of money let alone “millions”.

If you can code and speak decently well, you already have this.

I found out that the most important skills in the IT industry is the bullshit skill. That's the kind of skill you need to build.

I agree. I strongly suspect the people telling OP they aren't worried about finding another job are bullshitting him. Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too.

> Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too.

If that's the case, then mission accomplished. It seems that OP's root goal is to avoid the crippling anxiety and stress. Convincing yourself that it's not a problem -- even if it is -- also accomplishes that. Maybe it's not the best, but you're going to get laid off (or not) regardless of whatever anxiety or stress you feel leading up to that point. Better to just not feel the stress in the first place.

Really, though, is it that hard for you to believe that no one could feel confident in their skills such that they believe that they'd still be able to find a job during an economic downturn? It seems a little nonsensical to take that position.

I guess I should have said most people. I'm sure there are some high performers who aren't worried. I would think most average folks would be the ones who are concerned. I know I am.

on the contrary, I have seen people BSing their way be more insecure about their job during layoffs. During the layoffs its mostly strategic decision taken not just by your immediate boss but by CEOs or VP levels and managing up might not save your ass.

I’ve worked for 26 years across 8 jobs - 6 since 2008. It’s never taken me longer than a month to get a job.

Sounds like you're lucky. I'm unlucky and average. I would be afraid that I wouldn't get another job if I got fired.

Is it really luck after 8 times?

I’ve kept my skills in sync with the market and kept a strong network. Most of those years from 1996-2020 I was just your run of the mill enterprise CRUD developer.

It could be.

lots of people play this game....you don't have to. it may ultimately limit your ability to gain a high paying position that lives entirely in the marketing-verse and spouts drivel. but not all of us wants that

You may not like it, but you should at least acknowledge the perspective. I can think of several examples of people whose primary skill is “managing up” and can impress those writing the checks.

I take pride in doing what I consider to be generating business value, but I strongly believe that my compensation would be higher if I spent more time self-promoting rather than doing “real work”.

I consider managing up to be critical skill for me at least.

my version is that I tell them naked truth...some people appreciate that

>my version is that I tell them naked truth...some people appreciate that

It's possible to play both games.

The only skill you'll ever need is this: dazzle your audience w/ facts;else, baffle them w/ BS.

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