Regulating Crypto: How we move forward as an industry from here
coinbase.com
coinbase.com
The problem in reality would be non existent if people used crypto currencies for what they were meant to be used for: an alternative economy with no need for exchanges and third parties: you sell me a banana, I give you some satoshis.
Not saying this is convenient IRL, requiring to sync to a network and chain is expensive and difficult from a phone, but that was the supposed use case.
I'm more and more convinced that blockchain industry solves no real world problems at all, except in the crypto sphere itself (like smart contracts do have a use...for crypto exchanges, crypto games and crypto gambling) and that 99% of the people who get involved couldn't care less about crypto use cases, only if they will sell for more $ than they bought for.
industry regulations really
defeat most of the benefits
and points of the
decentralization
How so? Bitcoin's use cases seem unaffected:1: Hold something that is expected to stay scarce and not printed or mined to infinity
2: Make international, fast and cheap payments that are instantly finalized.
2: How does the receiving person use the received bitcoins, unless there is a real economy or again a centralized exchange?
Generally, it's literally the whole basic premise of everything 'crypto'!
Like, yes, when I take my kids to Chuck E. Cheese I do want to convert my money into the tokens. I do not want to store them as that.
Disclosure of ownership in crypto really should be around a dollar threshold, not percentage and that mostly defeats the purpose of anonymity. I think financial institutions (banks, exchanges, wall st.) should have to disclose holdings in crypto for both crypto trader awareness but also for their customers in other business sectors awareness.
There should also be strict rules preventing operating an exchange/market maker and any sort of investment firm (hedge fund, etc.) by any degrees of separation. That means they can have no relationships at all organizationally (parent/grandparent company owns both type of thing). Any transactions between exchanges and funds of that sort should 100% be reported and tracked. I think it can be anonymously tracked for some period of time but must be disclosed to an independent regulating organization.
https://bitcoinist.com/cftc-chair-only-bitcoin-is-a-commodit...
https://decrypt.co/103926/sec-chair-gensler-bitcoin-not-secu...
on SoFi for example the UI/UX for trading stocks and ETFs is the same flow for trading crypto and people trade it like it is one. Else, why hodl at all if it's not in hopes it'll go up in value?
> The problem in reality would be non existent if people used crypto currencies for what they were meant to be used for
Which is more or less what you're pointing at.
> We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust.
Any regulation introduces a 3rd party which Bitcoin was designed to remove.
You cannot outsource the trust to code. Code is not law. You cannot solve all problems with code.
In other words, "if people would stop exercising their free will and acting in ways that may benefit them, but are detrimental to my idea/this system/society/etc, everything would be fine!"
As the admin and main developer of a small browser-based game, this is a hard lesson I've had to learn over the past several years: We don't get to define how people act and think. When we build systems, we must take into account how people will actually try to use them...and if we find that they're using them in ways that are detrimental to the structure as a whole, we need to rethink our systems.
What governments want is digital currencies, all the privacy concerns and none of the benefits of cryptos.
But, let's see if crypto can survive this pressure. Really it must be robust to this if it has any purpose.
Most of us no longer us bank notes, yet the amount in circulation climbs...[0] what's going on?
It actually probably acts like a buffer, with BOE spending the net on government assets while the notes vanish off to places we prefer not to think of
The plots you shared are meaningless if they are not normalized against the total money supply. I think if normalized by total amount of money in circulation the percentage would be shrinking and not growing.
You know, I think we can help you with that: crypto exchanges should be banned on sight. Including localbitcoins.
Let the libertarians have their playground, but there must be no linkages between it and the regular world of money.
Who could have seen that coming? /s
crypto is many things, but the single most important is demonstrating cryptography as a foundation for robust digital rights. we can guarantee digital rights in a way that require complex and frequently corrupt institutional enforcement in the real world. this is a mind-bending achievement and we're only at the very outset
No wealthy person in this planet got wealthier by hoarding pieces of paper with pictures of national heroes, but by investing it in gold, art, land, real estate, stock markets and many others.
If you and some other people agree that specific hashes on a specific blockchain have some value for you and avoid "debasing your savings" you're free to hoard them.
The wealthy might be hoarding Lamborghini's but we can always build more cars. Can't do that with money unless the government or a commercial bank does it.
But I think more crucially is that what's increasingly looking like "the only good use of crypto" is really a consequence of social issues a similar way to how cars are very popular in countries with poor infrastructure (e.g. USA). If the country gets its act together, this aspect of crypto's value add vanishes and will just be seen as a slow and poor quality volatile payment system.
"If the country gets its act together".. you know by fair elections, good governance and you know by similar such 'non-crypto' things.
Or maybe you are just ignorant? Here are some examples I have compiled (took me <5 min): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095
You say - "If the country gets its act together...". I think crypto will get its act together and get around the adoption blockers before despot regimes of the world get their act together. Just a gut feeling based on our history so far. I also agree that there will be multiple crypto scams along the way. Such is the allure of the new tech.
[1] https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2022-global-crypto-adop...
[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-27/nigeria-s...
Mere issuance isn't enough to guarantee price stability.
(There's an interesting question to be asked about whether the US should allow the usage of its digital dollars by non-US persons as a means of evading the currency controls of South American governments, effectively exporting price stability. Much as the existing Eurodollar system. But I don't think this is the place for that discussion)
Srilankan rupee lost 50% value overnight in March 2022 and is subject to futher deterioration due to the corrupt incompetent government. Same with Venezuela. Bitcoin or Gold or USD/EUR are the only good options for the millions of citizens of those countries, albeit generally available on black markets because of government controls. My colleague has his family in such a country. Guess what is the easiest way for him to help his family in need? [Hint: gold is hard to transfer and USD/EUR transfers are sanctioned because of US/EU govt policies].
Clearly someone who lives in some small insular corner of the world with good governance and stable currencies would definitely imagine all the benefits of crypto. /s
Some real life examples of problems crypto has solved (compiled just for comments like yours which seem to be lacking empathy or imagination or both): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095
Are industry regulations preventing self custody?
I hope and believe we're talking about regulation being rightly applied to centralised exchanges. So they don't front run customers on token listings (Coinbase), use customer funds when customer's haven't allowed them to (FTX), replace their customer's coins with a different currency (Binance), or whatever else.
its regulation on centralized popup companies and letting onchain activity and constructs operate as they are
Crypto started out as a naive attempt at money without government. But this was quickly shown to be an open invitation to rampant fraud that is still ongoing and technology alone can not prevent.
So now in a last ditch effort at survival, crypto is begging for a government lifeline with oversight and regulation.
I said all along that the only thing government needed to do to kill crypto was absolutely nothing --- just give it some space to self implode.
This has largely come to pass. Only one final realization remains ---- if regulation is needed, crypto is not. It no longer will have any compelling *legal* reason to exist
Even people using so called "decentralized" exchanges turn to them to obtain a market rate for their transactions.
In effect, "decentralization" is just a crypto marketing/selling point that has never been achieved. It takes more than accounting to build a functional market.
A social network isn't decentralised because it's people use a centralised or decentralised proof-of-correctness. An economic network isnt centralised or decentralised if its ledger of promises is stored centrally or otherwise.
This is a fairly obvious fallacy to anyone who understands that centralisation of power is a social-graph structure, and economic centralisation is transaction-graph-structure and crypto "decentralisation" concerns only the storage-and-computation of a ledger.
Ironically, the crypto "economy" is radically more centralised in social-graph and transaction-graph terms. So much so that it's incredibly fragile to a handful of individual failures.
The idea that these have anything to do with each other is such an obvious nonesense that the only reason its repeated is just people do not understand at least one of these issues. Ie., very few are both in the camp of technically, politically and economically competent.
Money is already close to the maximally decentralised a ledger storage can be. It's already close to maximally decentralised proof-of-correctness. Having a bank-note in your hand is extremely good proof it's yours, and extremely hard for others to steal.
Decentralisation, in the only relevant sense to crypto, already exists in a close to perfect form (ie., money).
I was stupefied as I watched the opposite happen. If memory serves me correctly, it was Stripe that started getting into crypto instead of the other way around as the bubble was bursting--to my amazement. And this despite having patio11 in their ranks. Yeah yeah big company etc etc, but still, it really dented my confidence in the Stripe brand and the people working under its umbrella.
At one time, I looked at using Coinbase/crypto for money transfer purposes. I had several clients who tried to open an account but their applications were rejected. They were more strict than most banks.
Just wait for a full government mandated audit of Tether and other "stable coins" then get back to me on this. "Stable coins" are the support mechanism for Bitcoin and the crypto market in general. And they are on less than firm ground --- again, in my opinion.
It's difficult to say anything truly definitive about the current crypto market because transparency is the exception rather than the rule. This will likely change with government regulation.
I don't think Coinbases' interests align with the interests of the people using crypto in this article.
> First, self-custodial wallets allow customers to store their own crypto in a way where they don't have to trust anyone else.
But the "multi-party computation and social recovery" is exactly "having to trust someone else".
> First, self-custodial wallets allow customers to store their own crypto in a way where they don't have to trust anyone else. Technology improvements, like multi-party computation and social recovery, will make it easy for anyone to safely store their own crypto without needing to trust third parties.
I wonder if their tune would change once centralized exchanges would become influential again.
Once we’ve seen how the sausage was made at FTX, you can see why haha.
12 Oct 2022 - Sam Bankman-Fried: Stablecoins Are ‘Lowest-hanging Fruit’ for Crypto Regulation ... One regulator should have the duty to ensure all stablecoins are backed by dollars, FTX founder says
They are just an excuse to earn transaction fees and print fake money in exchange for bypassing regulations, always has been - insert Always has been meme.
- my bank has an upper limit of 1500 GBP so I can't receive the cheque
- if I could receive the cheque, the latency on me getting the funds is a few orders of magnitude more than 400ms
Can someone explain to me how code that processes my private information, in some “Bob’s 40K Basement Mining” node is protected and secured? Whether it be a smart contract or these new “use GPU VMs at fraction of cloud costs- through this token market”
“Because Bob risks a large stake if reputation is tampered” doesn’t cut it.
What’s the tech here, genuinely.
Users just send their transactions to a p2p network. It's miners that pick those up and put transactions into a block and decide which block is the parent to the one they built.
Its the job of miners/validators to pick the head of the chain.
But users have the ability to send transactions to whatever p2p network they want to send it to, even if it's a fork proposed by CurrentB on Hackernews.
To re-iterate, it's the users (with Full-Node) that decide which chain to follow. That is essentially what a hard-fork is (a portion of these users moving to a different chain) and it requires no special mining capabilities.
Miners follow the users, not the other way around. However, in reality, users are also led by network effects. Users can always cancel any chain the miners have decided to support if they collectively decide to do so.
The "security" is trying to hide your payment addresses to avoid people associating them with you.
More about the computational aspects around things like smart contracts.
* first, we've seen resistance from BOTH sides to sensible proposals in the past. Some because they thing Crypto should be totally unregulated (purists) and others because they want crypto shut down completely and any reasonable (even enabling) regulation makes that less likely
* second, there are still some core issues here. For instance, a major up side of crypto is the ability to evade regulation like sanctions. On a case by case basis this is sometimes good (helping Venezuelans access desperately needed international help) or bad (helping corruption or ransomware). This line:
>Establish a blacklist capability to meet sanctions requirements
hides within it a very large technical and social problem depending on exactly how it is implemented. And should that be different between stable coins (where the requirement is listed) and other coins?
Oh right, this doesn't follow the narrative that crypto is useless for everything.
They say in their conclusion that they're interested in this. I don't see any talk of commitment.
From the link, this was taken from an internal hackathon earlier in the year before the further crypto meltdown. they didn’t even write a proof of concept. Call me when they actually trapease or do something.
As someone with casual knowledge of crypto, that jargon in the first paragraph sounds useless to me
You can go back years finding all kinds of research papers, press releases, broad statements from you-name-it Fortune 500 talking about some crypto project.
It means absolutely nothing for these big corps to take a tiny portion out of their income-offsetting R&D departments to put a few people on moonshot/fluff/PR campaigns for papers like this. It makes them look cool, relevant, whatever and in the event it somehow goes somewhere they look like geniuses (and some exec gets a promotion). If it doesn't work out they never mention it again -OR- release a statement announcing termination of the project because of environmental concerns, etc (like Tesla).
For starters:
https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2022/11/29/maersk-and-i...
https://www.reuters.com/markets/australian-stock-exchanges-b...
Nice overview and summary (including Walmart):
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blockchain-fails-to-gain-tracti...
Tesla accepted payments, stopped, then hinted over a year ago they might resume them. Still hasn't happened:
https://www.yahoo.com/now/tesla-hints-may-accept-crypto-1043...
Another example of a splashy announcement that went nowhere:
https://www.ledgerinsights.com/walgreens-walmart-mediledger-...
It's getting tired to debate but I've been very active in blockchain since 2017, with two startups in the space. After more than a decade and tens of billions of dollars in spending and funding by everyone from enterprise to VC blockchain and crypto penetration and adoption is abysmal. If you want some sources and background on that conclusion I wrote this nearly a year ago and if anything usage and adoption is lower:
https://blog.cryptostars.is/blockchain-the-most-poorly-adopt...
Let me guess you lost a bunch of money or didn't make enough and are ready to give up? Or did you lose a lot and now think it's bad? Fact remains that blockchain is around and not going anywhere. While HN is super negative about blockchain, not sure why as this is a tech. innovation but still super negative, like this place is being run by big banks who stand to lose the most?
My change in thinking comes from five years very deep in this and realizing:
1. It's been five years waiting and we've yet to see any meaningful adoption. Bitcoiners (as one example) still post videos on social media of them doing Lightning transactions at some random one-off retail location like it's worthy of a post... The pro-crypto/blockchain community is like a cult following a doomsday preacher that keeps predicting dates for the apocalypse that come and go - only to believe yet another future date. If after a decade it's still a big deal to buy a sandwich with crypto it's really time to reconsider your position. If after a decade you're still celebrating things like a Visa press release of some blockchain research project it's really time to reconsider your position. Wouldn't we all laugh at someone getting excited to send an e-mail, shop online, or have $CORP setup a website in 2000?
2. Living blockchain and crypto everyday for five years has only served to reinforce and demonstrate first hand the attitude you see on HN - even with the incredible amount of time and resources thrown at the space it's still nowhere near ready for prime-time. I've written plenty of comments describing the horror that is even the most fundamental layers - node implementations, etc. See point #1 - I've been waiting for it to grow up and as a rational person I can't keep falling for lofty promises that never materialize. HN (for the most part) thinks the tech sucks because it does.
3. Being active in the space has only exposed me directly to the incredible sleaziness that is crypto and blockchain. I've had founders of large and well-known startups show up to meetings obviously high on drugs, saying things like "I'm just trying to get made, paid, and laid" repeatedly. I've had meetings with large blue chip VC firms active in crypto that essentially describe the position of SBF - "We're in the ponzi business and it's going well". My latest startup is an anti-fraud solution for blockchain and I've been repeatedly told things like "Why would we want this? We make our money on fraud." Needless to say details of SBF unfolding - drug usage, criminality, etc are not surprising to me in the least. HN (for the most part) thinks crypto and blockchain is a cesspool of bad actors because it is.
Five years ago I was convinced blockchain was the next big thing - akin to the internet/web. After five years of these personal experiences, all of the available data on adoption, headlines of people in crypto getting indicted, faking their own deaths, rugpulling, exchanges collapsing, Defi and wallets getting hacked left and right, failed project after failed project, dealing with people I want nothing to do with, etc, etc I see it for what it obviously is - even though I've personally come out ahead financially (largely due to timing and luck).
How much of your personal self-interest/stake is driving your position on all of this?
Is it a billion dollar opportunity, don't think so but I can understand the appeal.
That is how digital art changes hands.
It would we more correct to say that critical NFT commentary is held up by misunderstanding about what digital art collectors actually think and want.
If I want to buy rights to a JPG, I go search on Shutterstock. If I want to buy a piece of digital art (in form of a limited edition receipt), I go to a gallery.
- without the risk of a margin call, and
- with the ability to cash out from a broker and hold your own "shares".
Regulations and centralisation!
How ironic, so a crypto exchange wishes the U.S. government, an immensely powerful centralized entity crypto was designed to omit, makes everyone else play nice on the global stage. How would the US do that? Hmm… guessing regulating flow of dollars.
Ha!
crypto will live on. but the "industry" of money people parasitising on it will inevitably die. and that's a good thing
Money is just a piece of the social contract generalizing specific work into tokens of value. It allows a specialized worker to transact with another specialized worker such that we all have our needs met. It is a mechanism of decentralized organization enabling deep specialization absent needed to trust of even know someone else. You can see the production of someone, and transfer value to them without them needing to trust them personally.
You could say finance is the backbone of modern technological society. It is implicitly pseudo-democratic, in that where it flows, resource allocation power is afforded, which results in production of resources based upon the usage of whoever wields resource allocation.
If you analyze systems from this lens, look at the production of money itself. What work is being distilled into generalized value with money systems? What is the minting processes relationship with governance and democratic institutions?
There is a theme here. Money is directly coupled with governance. That coupling comes in the form of resource allocation, and it comes with an assumption of government control — where government is entrusted with the interests of public good. Hence, taxation comes into play, and a treasury, and tax collectors, and penalties, and policing, and military — the full faith and confidence of the people.
With something so tightly coupled to democracy, would a free and democratic people not want their money system to also be free, open, and democratic? Yet before the invention of Bitcoin, it has been anything but that — and if you can’t see that, you have some reading to do.
Long story short: bitcoin is part of a bigger picture. It is the backbone of government. Of a new form of government. Of a government bound in the laws of physics, codified as subservient to the governed. Of a government true to the cause of freedom. Of a government mathematically and verifiably auditable, in which no man can corrupt the fundamental rules of governing, in which every human has a voice, in which the evils of the world have no recourse nor cracks to hide in.
Imagine that for a moment. What that means for all of us. Imagine taxation as an automated component of crypto, for instance. No more taxation by force, no more complex paperwork, no more statistical enforcement, all of that process and ruling by fear — ALL of it — gone.
There are countless additional ripples here, but I will leave you with some food for thought on the possibility and dire necessity of this:
- houses are no longer affordable to most people who do not own one. This means that family and community is no longer possible for most people. Many of you here enjoy this. What would you so if you lost your house and had to care for your family in a cramped, crime-laden apartment?
- food is increasingly not affordable. What happens when people can no longer eat? How stable is that?
- medical care is not affordable for anyone, without perpetual servitude, and often times the insurance is a joke coming with it
- transport is out of reach for most people. This means you have no mobility to change your physical circumstances
- police are out of control. Their union is too powerful and their primary interest is securing property rights.
- tax payer funds are stuck in a transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the mega rich. Look at the military industrial complex, the medical complex, and all the other complexes across industries.
- the politicians are bought and paid for. You think any of those people have power? How effective have any of their policies been on solving these basic and ancient problems?
- the climate is killing life as we know it on this planet, and while society is increasingly aware of this and want it to be fixed, policy makers and corporations are barely changing. Who really controls everything if not the people?
I could go on all day, but the summation is: the current system is tyrannous and oppressive to most. It is faceless and has no central target to blame. The people are left in darkness, condemned to having no present, no future, reduced to a fragment of themselves, consumed in servitude of a faceless shadow. We have a resource allocation problem. A big one. Bitcoin was stage one of the cure to this problem. It has done something most people thought was impossible before it: it made the minting process accessible to anyone, and liberated the opaque financial system into the hands of the people, turning a shadow system into a beacon of light. It gave humanity its collective spine.
What comes next? It is inevitable what comes next. And it is unstoppable. Our current society is having trouble feeding its people, housing its people, healing its people — these are the most basic upon basic needs, in a world of automation and light speed communications, we can barely manage even the basics. It isn’t just sad, it isn’t just pathetic — it is negligent, it is malicious, and it is not necessary. When government in the information age, an age of mastery of atoms, of space, of light, of matter, how is it possible society CANNOT HOUSE AND FEED THEIR PEOPLE.
It makes my blood boil. But I keep it in. I keep it calm. I imagine the suffering of billions and feel their pain. It is paralyzing. But cool heads prevail. We all must carry on and not let the flames of rage consume us. If you don’t see or understand the connection to bitcoin, I just don’t know what to tell you. Maybe, in your relative luxury, you don’t see the reality of the suffering your fellow man is enduring. And so maybe, you haven’t had cause to investigate the root causes. If you did, you would inevitably be lead to the mode of thinking I carry.
I don’t want to spoil the next steps, you all know it already, you feel it in your hearts, but here’s a raging clue for you to chew on:
> WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
> We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.