The Physics of baking good Pizza (2018) | Hacker News Reader

The Physics of baking good Pizza (2018)

arxiv.org

120 pointsTomte123 comments

The paper recommends against baking pizza on steel because this would cook the pizza too fast, but this is only true at the temperatures of pizza-specific ovens (paper says 620F / 325C). If you're trying to cook a pizza at home in an oven that only goes up to 550F / 290C the steel helps a lot to make up for the oven not being quite hot enough.

(I use a pizza stone, though, mostly because that's what I already have)

Yup, bake my pizzas on a 44W slab and they come out perfect.

> 44W slab

44 Watts?

44W is a type of steel (https://www.terranovasteel.com/structural)

Still, somebody needs to prototype a 44 Watt steel slab to cook pizzas with.

This is Hacker News, after all. :)

And then someone needs to port Doom to it.

Would the pizza dough on the bottom be considered as the display? ;)

I'm thinking pellets of cheese as the pixels, with a frame rate of one frame about every three minutes.

44 watts is not enough. I would say 1100 minimum to cook a good pizza.

If I were reading this on The Right Tools for The Right Job News, I'd agree. :)

It all depends on the size of the pizza. Make one with a diameter of 3 cm and those 44 watts are more than sufficient.

44W is a secret way to tell you that they are Canadian! (... it is a steel grade)

I make pizza in oven-safe pan, then just put it on stove on max heat for some time (till it all heats up and starts smoking basically) then shove it into oven. If bottom crust is not browned enough can be also just put back on the stove after baking.

I must have misread or something. Page 5/6 clearly seemed to demonstrate there was a problem with steel because the interface temp which drives transfer would end up much lower with steel. This is also confirmed in their conclusion... At least I thought... with the following line:

>Together with a weight loss of 30g, a good assumption is a 20% loss of water, i.e. α=0.2. Using this with the values of specific heat capacity and density for dough from the table above, one finds that Qtot = (70 + 226)J/^2, which gives for the baking time in the wood oven T(wood oven) ≈ 125 s. For the electric oven an analogous calculation resultsin an almost 50% longer time T(elect steel) ≈ 170 seconds. We see that we have succeeded to reproduce the value disclosed to us by our pizzaiolo: 2 minutes for baking in a wood oven. The result of an attempt to bake a pizza in the electric oven will be the mentioned unbalanced product. (Burnt crust, innards uncooked)

would end taking longer because of the cooler interface temp?

I'm kinda thinking I misread or lost the track somewhere though to the point I kinda want to figure out how to do the experiment myself.

Any time diff eq's come into it, I tend to feel better after I've like done the math myself 5 times. Me and calculus love each other, but damn are we not good for one another.

I have found that steel works up to ~650F but becomes too conductive above that (hence using stone). Stone is not conductive enough below 650F-700F

thats not how that works. stone and steel are both exactly as conductive at one temperature as they are at another, at steady state.

i dont mean to say the conductivity changes, but the thermal conductivity of steel is too high that when its hot enough it will have too much stored heat and will burn your pizza. stone, having a lower conductivity will release its heat more slowly

also, conductivity is determined by (at least) material, shape, and temperature

After some experimentation, I ended up doing pizza on a stone that sits atop a steel on my gas grill, with another stone suspended above to reflect heat back down. I find that the steel’s conductivity keeps the stone nice and hot while reducing thermal loss when I place the dough, while the stone provides “softer” more even heat to the pizza to prevent scorching.

Does the steel under the stone actually do anything? I think of the advantage of steel as getting things to equilibrium faster, but your stone should already be at equilibrium.

I have noticed a different versus not having it. I think the additional thermal mass helps maintain high, even heat when you lay the dough down, so you get a crispier crust.

The extra thermal mass I would definitely believe, yes! I just wouldn't expect there to be additional benefit from the high conductivity of it being steel.

Ah, good point!

There are some great videos on youtube about how people hack their oven's auto clean mode in order to get the temperature up for the purposes of making a killer pizza. The auto clean, blasts the oven at a high temperature, but when it's engaged it locks the door so you can't open it. People rig the toggle so that they can get the higher temperature and still be able to open the oven to put the pizza in. This lets folks achieve high temperatures closer to that of a brick oven (but not quite that high).

I'd love to do that. It's also too bad that you can't manually engage the lock as a safety feature.

I’m sure you could manually remove/bypass the lock.

I’m not quite sure what’s safe about opening a 550 degree oven but is dangerous with a 890 degree one.

Most household ovens (standard kitchen range) are on the floor. When you open them, the heat rolls up into your face. A blast of 800 degree air will scorch your corneas if you are looking down.

But 550 won't? I suppose it's because during clean things are burning but ...

You definitely can manually set the lock at least on most ovens I’ve seen in the UK and Europe, it’s sometimes not obvious but they do have a “child lock” just like most electric cooking hobs.

Most ovens, including mine, have a child lock function, but at least on mine it does not engage the physical door lock (ie. you can still open the oven door), it just locks out the controls.

Jeff Varasano's Famous New York Pizza Recipe:

https://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

> If you are baking at under 750F, you should really not use 00. It will never brown and you'll have much more luck with another flour.

Concur with the author that 00 is very different from other kinds of flour, as far as the result you get, but I like a blend of about 80/20 bread flour (usually King Arthur) / 00. Maybe up to 70/30, tops. You get a lot of chewiness and flavor from adding a little 00. Add too much and it'll come out far too floppy and seem under-cooked, at ordinary home-kitchen-oven temps, author's right about that.

Huh, so that's why...

I've been just putting it on stove (in a pan) before baking to get a bit of brown

Yeah, 00 is the "correct" flour for pizza dough, but only if you're using a real, high-temp pizza oven. If you're stuck at 550F or lower, like most home ovens, it won't cook right—it's pretty char/firming-up resistant, you'll burn the hell out of your toppings before the 00 dough gets where it needs to be. It has killer flavor and does some good stuff for texture, though, which is why I still blend some in.

My oven actually have some "pizza baking mode" but sadly it half broke, and by that I mean only upper heater works and any mode that enables the bottom one pops fuses.

I'd definitely be looking for something like that in my next one

How do you move your pizza from the shovel to the stone/oven? Its so sticky..

I keep failing at this resulting in dirty oven or calzones… to the point that I am back at using backing paper and giving up in the stone.

1. Good layer of flour or semolina under the pizza. Semolina being preferred as it doesn't burn that easily comparing to flour

2. Don't keep the pizza on the shovel for too long because the gluten relaxes and the dough becomes stretchy. Below minute is ideal

3. Before moving to the oven shake it well to ensure it doesn't stick and moves freely. If it doesn't, you still have chance to add some flour/semolina under it

4. Confident moves. Maybe watch some youtube vidoes showing the exact movement. Ideally it would be one energetic "shake" and done!

Never tried metal "shovel" but working with wooden one for a good 8 years with great results

edit: formatting

Or use a screen.

Put a lot of flour on the peel (shovel). Like a lot of flour. Then shake the peel above your counter to get the pizza sliding before you transfer to oven.

As @wwarek said, I use breadcrumbs instead but you must sprinkle a quite lot of it. Sure, it burns a little in the oven but a small price for crusty pizza.

Then you should ensure the toppings dont fall outside the pizza, they'll stick and ruin it. Shaking it before thrusting into oven is crucial as well to know it will fall off the shovel smoothly. Lastly, you just have to commit when you do it. Maybe start with smaller pizzas to ensure nothing touches the stone before you drop it.

1. Make sure you have all your toppings ready before you begin assembling your pizza.

2. When you grab your dough ball (before you stretch it), coat it with flour. This is critical.

3. Stretch the dough on a floured counter top. Only transfer to your lightly floured peel when it is ready to be dressed. This reduces the amount of time it is on the peel.

4. Work quickly once your dough is on the peel.

NOTE: If white flour isn't working as a barrier on the peel, consider rice flour or corn meal as they don't absorb water like white flour does.

The cheat code is silicone baking mats.

Pizza is one of my standard food items. E.g., I get bread and pizza flour in 25 pound bags from Sam's Club. Each batch of dough uses 650 ml water, 1 tablespoon of Fleischmann's active dry yeast, 1 tablespoon of salt, and 1 kilogram of the flour. I end up with 8 chunks of pizza dough. So, each chunk of dough is good for one pizza for one.

No way do I want to try to compete with the artistry of brown spots from 600+ F wood-fired pizza ovens, etc. I don't even want to warm up the oven in my kitchen stove.

So, I put the pizza in just a clean, dry standard cast iron frying pan, put on a glass cover from a glass casserole dish set, and set the stack on a standard stove burner for 22 minutes.

Doing that, the bottom got done while the top was still not hot enough, so to insulate the bottom I set the dough on a round sheet of Teflon. Cut the sheet from a long roll from Amazon intended for drying fruit or some such.

Works fine. Get a good pizza for $1- each.

Ah, the BBQ is better: Picnic pork shoulder, ~9 pounds, skin side down, on a rack, in an uncovered roasting pan, in a 200 F oven to an internal temperature of 175 F, separated, chopped, sauced, warmed in a microwave, with coleslaw. ~$2 per sandwich.

Or a 1/2 pound of 80% lean ground beef, frozen, as a round slice from a 5 pound tube from WalMart, in a cast iron frying pan, ..., with a sauce of heavy cream, beef consomme, Dijon mustard, Worcestershire sauce, etc. -- fake, cheap, Steak Diane!

> No way do I want to try to compete with the artistry of brown spots from 600+ F wood-fired pizza ovens, etc

If you make pizza a lot, consider also the middle way of gas-fired "portable" ovens, the likes of Ooni or Roccbox. My experience was very positive.

Disclosure: very much a beginner at this and I'm happy to be corrected on any of it.

My Ooni experience has been very bad. I have an IR thermometer, so I can check the temps: at the back it's 900, at the front 600. This is after an hour of warm-up. If I weren't so stubborn I'd have gotten rid of the Ooni already.

Furthermore, the lack of height means you can't use gravity to slide the pizza off the peel, like you can with a kitchen oven when you slide the rack out. So the pizza tends to stick to the peel and not want to go in. (I know: lots of flour on the peel. I do that.)

I've had much better results with the kitchen oven at 500, preheated for an hour, and a steel.

This article also neglects the art of gluten formation, which lets you stretch the dough without tearing it, AFAIK. Which raises a question for y'all: rolling pin, or hand-stretch? The owner of my local pizzeria, which has been there for 50 years, says rolling pin.

I don't have this issue with the Ooni. I wonder what is going on.

One thing to consider trying, heat it up at high heat and then when you put the pizza in, try turning the temperature down to a medium or low.

I am wondering if it is possible that the high temperature reading is directly from the flame and by turning it down during the cook, you'll have a more consistent temperature.

thanks. I'm aiming the laser dot at the stone, near the flame but not AT the flame.

> My Ooni experience has been very bad

Sorry to hear that, but maybe you can still work at it.

> at the back it's 900, at the front 600. This is after an hour of warm-up.

I think that it will be as hot as it is going to get, after about 30 mins.

I get a touch over 500c at the back corner (maybe 950F) and a bit over 300C (600F) at the front lip. This should be right, with a centre at 350 to 400C

> rolling pin, or hand-stretch?

I hand-stretch, but also autolyse.

> lots of flour on the peel.

Semolina. Put your friend Semolina on the peel. It's a very coarse flour, as opposed to pizza flour, which is very fine. It makes the pie slide like it's little dry ball-bearings. Semolina.

If you can't get Semolina, use coarse cornmeal.

The next time you have pizza in a relatively authentic Italian place, run your finger along the underside of the pizza. You should feel a slightly rough, sandpapery texture that isn't present on top. That's from the semolina.

Just before launch, give the pizza a back-and-forth shake on the peel first, to be sure that it's moving, and get it moving if need be. You should know that it's not sticking to the peel, because you've seen/felt it move a bit.

Do you use the same peel to launch and to extract? Typically this is not recommended as the extraction can make that peel hot and moist, which would affect the next launch. Launch off wood or aluminium. Extract with aluminium or other metal peel.

Look for the "ultra-low zone" trick for turning the flame down very low after launch.

You will get these tips in https://www.reddit.com/r/ooni

You can see techniques demo'd on youtube. e.g. ulttra-low zone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAGmW4SI4PU and shake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkD-IrTNpTk&t=27s Don't give up, there are tricks and techniques to learn.

> Do you use the same peel to launch and to extract? Typically this is not recommended as the extraction can make that peel hot and moist, which would affect the next launch. Launch off wood or aluminium. Extract with aluminium or other metal peel.

Alternatively, scrub the peel with cornmeal between launch and next pizza.

> Alternatively, scrub the peel with cornmeal between launch and next pizza

You would have to make do like that if you only have one peel, but in general you'll be better off with separate Launch, turning and extraction peels. They do different jobs and so have different designs.

The turning peel is typically quite different to the other two, but as mentioned, you'll do better with 2 different ones for launch and extraction. Wood is great for launch, terrible for extraction - you can't keep it in a hot oven for any length of time. And a metal peel that has warmed up during doming and extraction would be worse for the next launch.

Also, the launch peel can be prepped for the next launch by someone else, while the current pizza is cooking.

Absolutely, I have a separate turner. All good points, but it can be done without. Generally my flow once things get going is:

1) clean launcher (scrub with cornmeal to remove sauce burned cheese etc) (15 seconds)

2) heavily flour the launcher with fresh cornmeal and kneed flat a single pizza dough (1 min)

3) build pizza with toppings (30 seconds)

4) launch, watch for flare ups (pull pizza away from flare ups and let burn out before pushing back forward), turn as cheese browns until all surface cooked (1-2 min)

5) take out pizza and set aside for slicing, use launcher to push forward cornmeal from last launch to force a burn out (15 seconds)

6) go to step 1

3-4 oven minutes / pizza or 15-20 pizzas / hr / oven

Most expensive part is the real mozzarella cheese which is outrageously expensive in the US. In France its 1/4 the price. I think I may make mozzarella in the near future, it looks like the easiest of cheeses.

> real mozzarella cheese which is outrageously expensive in the US

do you mean the "fresh" stuff they sell in some US stores, in liquid? Or the bufalo?

I actually did a 1/2 and 1/2 test with a friend, half bufalo mozz & half standard shrink-wrapped mozz. He preferred the bufalo, I was meh.

The interesting thing was, the bufalo had so much moisture that it soaked through the crust. At least the shrink-wrapped stuff is dryer so you don't have that problem.

Pardon me I meant the "fresh" stuff they sell in US stores is outrageously expensive, ~$10/lb. I don't really know what Bufalo is but the stuff I'm talking about would be fairly moist too, you need to use the cheese sparingly or else it will create a puddle on the surface.

Italians may use mozz made from water buffalo milk. I guess I spelled it wrong: two f's:

https://www.delightedcooking.com/what-is-buffalo-mozzarella....

I don't think it's very often used in the US.

The mozzarella cheese I use is from Sam's Club. I just checked, and what I use is

"Maker's Mark Part Skim Shredded Mozzarella Cheese (5 lbs.)

$14.67 $2.93/lb"

Soooo, a lot less than $10/pound!

What if anything that Maker's Mark cheese has to do with anything from/in Italy, I don't know!

To have the cheese keep without mold, I keep it frozen. When I'm making a pizza and put on the mozzarella, it is still frozen. Right, when the heat for the cooking starts, still frozen! Works fine! The Teflon sheet lets the top of the pizza and the cheese get hot before burning the bottom of the crust.

In the US, pizza, in all its versions, is a big industry, a significant part of the diet of 300+ million people. BIG!

So, we're not talking a grandmother in a rustic kitchen in the hills of a small, rural town in Italy!!!

I omitted but might include: For applying the heat, I put the cast iron frying pan, covered, on one of the large burners of my 4 burner US electric stove. The burners are, as I recall, from GE or some such -- some big US company anyway. And I've seen them from the same source on other electric stoves. Soooo, if you have an electric stove, there's a good chance you have the same burner elements.

Then for the burner there is a dial. Viewing the dial as a clock face, 12 o'clock is OFF. 1 o'clock is the highest power. 6 o'clock is medium power. For cooking pizza, I use about 8 o'clock and 22 minutes. Then the toppings are hot. The cheese is melted. The crust is cooked with the edges puffy. And the bottom of the crust is browned but not burned. 23 minutes can be too long, burn the bottom crust and have the melted cheese running over the sides of the crust. 20 minutes, maybe the cheese is not yet melted. On your stove, likely you should watch carefully until you have the time and temperature about right!

Excellent, thanks.

For the cheese: yes, there's the freezer, but I've also found my Zwilling vacuum unit works well. Put the leftover in the special bag, evacuate the air (as much as it'll do, anyway), and I don't get mold on it.

Thanks. The Serious Eats recipe for New York Pizza also does a test of the food processor vs. the stand mixer. The food processor beats the hell out of the mixer.

> This article also neglects the art of gluten formation, which lets you stretch the dough without tearing it, AFAIK. Which raises a question for y'all: rolling pin, or hand-stretch? The owner of my local pizzeria, which has been there for 50 years, says rolling pin.

Food processor. Mine is shit so it needs some helping but otherwise comes up nice and stretchy. Ain't nobody got time to knead for 10 minutes like some recipes/YTbers want.

I put a bit of flour, water and yeast in separate cup and leave alone for some time (till it smells yeasty), mix rest of flour with salt and then add the yeast and remaining wated to it. My reasoning is that it's easier to spread yeast around that way but dunno if that's right, seems to work.

Then mix in food mixer till it is nice and uniform uniform, leave for an hour, then mix again. I occasionally manually reposition dough in food processor a bit but again, that's coz mine is a bit shit.

Then cover and leave overnight in fridge

> gluten formation, rolling pin, or hand-stretch, food mixer.

For my ingredients listed above: First, I put the yeast in the water to soak and get soft, sometimes for 1+ hours. Right before combining with the flour, add salt to the water and yeast and mix. There are rumors that if had the salt in the water and yeast for 1+ hours, the salt would kill the yeast. Then add ~2/3rds of the four to the water, yeast, and salt. Mix with a cooking spoon. Add the rest of the flour and mix roughly. Cover and let rise for 1+ hours. Dump onto a floured pastry board and knead: Press and flatten, fold in half, and repeat. Use enough loose flour to keep the outside surface not very sticky -- don't have to have sticky dough on fingers. Knead until dough "springs back". 8 minutes is plenty long enough. Return to the bowl, cover, and let rise again for several hours. This time will get a lot of CO2 and volume. Dump onto pastry board again, stretch into a log and cut into 8 pieces -- or fewer if want larger individual pizzas. Put each piece in its own covered plastic container. Freezing works well -- can thaw in microwave quickly or in refrigerator overnight. For a pizza, just press flat and round with finger tips. Since I press the dough on a round sheet of Teflon, I don't have to think about how to handle the dough once flat, round, and topped with sauce, cheese, etc.

So, no machines, rolling pins, tossing, or hand stretching. Supposedly the kneading does "develop the gluten". The kneading does make the dough very different from the dough for pie crust.

There are rumors that letting the dough rise in a refrigerator generates good, additional yeast flavor. Also, there are many varieties of yeast, and some make more and/or better flavor than others.

Like just put a round ball of dough and press it ? I might try it, shaping the dough into round shape is my least favourite part

> There are rumors that if had the salt in the water and yeast for 1+ hours, the salt would kill the yeast.

As much as I have researched that it's that some level of salt would do that but level below that would just slow the yeast down. I'd be more worried with 1h+ in water it would just not have the "fuel" to multiply.

That's why I start with yeast, water and some flour, basically to get yeast to multiply a bunch before mixing it with rest of the flour, I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform

> So, no machines, rolling pins, tossing, or hand stretching. Supposedly the kneading does "develop the gluten". The kneading does make the dough very different from the dough for pie crust.

I tried kneading, tossing, rolling pin, and machine and honestly only difference seems to be time. End result is still "The sticky dough is now less sticky" except amount of mess and time to do it is different...

> There are rumors that letting the dough rise in a refrigerator generates good, additional yeast flavor. Also, there are many varieties of yeast, and some make more and/or better flavor than others.

I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough. Maybe if I tried it side by side or something...

This calls out for the Triangle Test! Two the same, one different, and you have to pick the outlier.

> I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough

I do sourdough, so I use a levain not a dry yeast, but I have done many 2-day doughs (48 hours rest in the fridge) and many 1-day doughs (24 hours in the fridge), and yes, I can easily tell the difference, and I prefer the 2-day dough, and will always do that timeline when schedule permits.

Serious eats reached similar conclusions: https://www.seriouseats.com/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-...

NB thier "day 1" is same day: "Each day (including the first before it went in the fridge), I pulled out a 6-ounce chunk of it... and baked it"

So what I call a "two-day dough" with about 48 hours in the fridge, is what they call "day 3", which isn't wrong: Thursday, Friday, Saturday are 3 days; Thursday afternoon to to Saturday afternoon is 2 days. Dough made on Thursday rests for 2 days before Saturday, and Saturday is the third day.

I agree with them on the dough that rested 24 hours or less though - "tight, small-holed structure ... The flavor of the crumb was ... one dimensional". It is spongy and bready. Not bad, just bland.

I'd like to try some yeast that gives more flavor than the Fleischmann's <i>active dry</i> yeast I use. But, I don't want to invest time or effort looking for a yeast with "more flavor"!!

I've heard claims that the usual US yeast is of strains selected for the US bread industry and where the main objective is a reliable, big, fast rise with little or no flavor!

Sooooo, again, the US goes for some high industrial productivity with little attention to artisan considerations!!!

> I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform

I omitted some details on this point:

Yes, adding the (active dry) yeast and the salt directly to the dry flour would also have me worry about "non-uniform".

Sooo, I try to have steps that promise to give a nice uniform distribution of the yeast and salt ...:

I don't try to get the yeast to grow or generate CO2 before it is mixed with the flour and is set aside to rise.

Instead, I put the (active dry) yeast in the 650 ml of water just to soften. So, it is plenty wet, starts with plenty of water, when it is mixed in with the flour. I suspect that this step, to soften the yeast, is not necessary, to give it a drink of water, enough to soften it, is useless and pointless.

Then, just before combining the water and yeast in the water with the flour, I add the salt to the water and yeast and mix it in. Sooo, the salt is nicely uniform in the water, and the yeast has a good start on being uniform in the water. Then, in goes the ~2/3rds of the flour. These ingredients can be mixed with a spoon and are still essentially a liquid. And I do that -- use the spoon to mix the mixture into what definitely looks like everything is uniformly distributed. Soooo, this spoon mixing is likely doing a good job achieving uniform distributions of the water, yeast, and salt.

Then I add the remaining ~1/3rd of the flour. Now the mixture is too stiff to mix well with a spoon. Sooo, I just do a little mixing. At this point, the flour is NOT, is no longer, nicely uniformly mixed with the water, salt, and yeast. Just from an accident, I discovered that it can be good, for the final texture, to let this mixture rise some. Actually this rise step is optional.

Then on to the kneading: Coat the outside surface with some flour so that your fingers don't get too sticky with the dough. Then, for the kneading, press the dough out some, enough to be able to fold it in half. Then, fold it in half, and repeat -- press, fold, press, fold .... During this, may have to add a little loose flour to the outside surface to keep too much dough sticking to your fingers.

Here are, with this kneading work, sure, "developing the gluten", etc. But to me what is more important, are achieving a nice uniform distribution of the water, yeast, and salt with the flour. That is, you can pretty well tell that the water is uniformly distributed in the flour.

Soooo, since, from the first efforts with the yeast and salt in the water, the yeast and salt are already uniformly distributed in the water, and now the water is uniformly distributed with the flour, no doubt the water brought along the yeast and salt uniformly and now the salt and yeast are ALSO uniformly distributed with the flour, thus, addressing your concerns!

I omitted all that but include it here!

Italian here! I don't think you're legally authorised to call that "pizza" (just joking, you are, but people might disagree).

1kg of flour for a single portion pizza seems very excessive.

It was divided in 8 chunks, so 125 gram of flour per pizza.

Or 206 g of dough ((1000 + 650) / 8) per pizza, not accounting for losses from evaporation and waste. That's a reasonable size, not large.

Italian???

Thank you, thank you, thank you, yes, for pizza, Pecorino Romano, Chianti, ..., and also for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiSSz0snWzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-TwMfgaDC8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J7JM0tGgRY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkHGUaB1Bs8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1woH96ROG-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7OyQf90WNc

I had no part in any of that.

But here's another song you probably won't like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9WWz95ripA

I don't have any "psrt" in any of that either. It's just that I like those things, a lot. I like music a LOT, and that Italian music is some of what I like the most. A lot of what I included is opera, and I can't sing. But here is some Italian violin music I like a lot:

https://youtu.be/kS-W3lfcVvY

The girl is pretty, but she is also quite good on violin and especially in this famous Vivaldi music.

In my first effort at grad school, two of the classes they had me in were the same or below what I'd done in ugrad, and I didn't like anything else they had. So, I kept up with my teaching, e.g., calculus, and in the music school got started on violin! Great fun! Eventually I got through several pages of some of the most famous Bach pieces for violin -- more great fun! A violin is an amazing instrument and going to be really tough to replace with just computer software.

Gee, in good things from Italy, I rate its opera right up there with pizza!

Wait until you find out about arancini

Arancini? Never heard of it! Via Google found

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/food-network-kitchen/ara...

WOW! They look good. Would be nice to take to the big family Christmas dinner -- we will have one if we are not all snowed in!

While the video looks good, making it good doesn't look easy:

First, uh, at least in that recipe are three cheeses, mozzarella, fontina, and parmesan. I get mozzarella in 5 pound bags, Sam's Club, plainly intended for PIZZA, just pizza, US style pizza, largely independent of whatever is/was done in Italy, but the recipe may prefer the fresh version of mozzarella I've heard about, seen on video clips, but never seen in the real! I've never used or even seen fontina! Parmesan? Okay. Not so cheap. I have some Pecorino Romano I could use as a substitute. It wasn't so cheap, either. And not all Parmesan is the same -- should shop for an appropriate version, maybe in some New York City Italian grocery -- again I've seen on video but never in the real! And should avoid making substitutions -- once start on that are on a road to a lot of work to poor results. Only need 1/2 cup of grated Parmesan -- with the driving, looking for a good version of the real stuff, buying maybe only 2 pounds of it, etc., are looking at the 1/2 cup of Parmesan in the actual dish as served at, what, $100 a pound???

Pine nuts? Heard about them. Don't think I ever saw or ate any!!!

Then there is the "fresh parsley" -- hmm, in the winter? I have a big bottle of Tone's dry parsley and include some of that in my rough guesses at tomato sauce for pizzas, but it doesn't seem to add much flavor. So, I'd want fresh parsley instead of the dried. Maybe some high end grocer would have a good version of that. Could drive all around town looking for that! For the parsley in the final dish, looking at what, $500 a pound???

Then there is the arborio rice. Gee, I have some rice. It's just -->>RICE<<-- I use when I try and fail again at Chinese cooking. As far as I know, all rice is the same!! Would have to look up arborio. I've never seen it and don't know what it is!!!

And the chicken broth -- yup, that can be good! I try to avoid the salty little cubes or even the canned stuff and, and for this recipe with pine nuts, etc., would want to start with, gee, some actual chicken! In the US that should be really, REALLY easy since there are lots of retired hens from the egg industry and since the grocers like to sell just chicken pieces, especially skinless, boneless, breast pieces, chicken wings, and each of those should generate lots of backs, necks, ribs, and skin great for broth. Grocers could be selling 5 pound sacks of frozen necks, backs, ribs, skin for broth, but they don't! And I don't have any chickens running around in my back yard!

The broth situation is much the same, not easy, also for beef broth, and finally I just gave up and use canned beef consomme -- definitely the high end, Monte Carlo, 5 star Michelin, platinum version of "beef broth"!!!

Similarly for beef for stew: There is a remark in one of Escoffier's books that old cattle give better flavors for broth, stock, stew, etc. AND the US has plenty of old cattle, retired from dairy farms. Sooooo, for beef stock, where to buy the leg bones of old cattle? For beef stock, are supposed to roast and brown the leg bones and then put them in the water. Or for beef stew, where to buy, say, a bottom round roast from old cattle? Uh, not from USDA Prime, Choice, or Select -- all from young cattle!

Yup, the old cattle are, say, USDA Commercial. Google it all you want -- can't find it at retail and can't even find it mentioned for sale anywhere.

Once I just called a packing house and asked what happens to old cattle, and the answer was "think fast food". Soooo, Burger King gets what Escoffier recommended, and I can't!!

Uh, Walmart sells 80% lean ground beef in 5 pound plastic wrapped tubes. They are not packed locally but are shipped from some plant in Missouri. Hmm .... Bet they use the cheapest beef they can, e.g., USDA Commercial, Cutter and Canners, etc. Soooo, that ground beef is likely some of the best flavored beef available at retail at any price, and that means that the Fake Steak Diane I outlined has an advantage!!!

Ah, to honor Escoffier, go to Walmart!!!

> I've never seen it and don't know what it is!!!

I think it's just the regular risotto rice.

Ah, my guess, going back years, is that a large fraction of book and Internet recipes are more for reading than eating!

> just joking

Unless you want to call it a Pizza Napoletana, then there is this (by the EU, of course): https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:...

Pizza gets a bad rap healthwise, but when it's made at home it can be perfectly healthy.

I make flatbread and use that as the pizza crust. Then everybody in the family gets to put their choice of toppings on. It's a bit of a circus as you can only bake one pizza at a time in our 24" oven, but circuses are fun.

The advantage of the flatbread is all you really have to do is get the toppings hot and cheese melted, as the crust is already cooked. Pizza purists won't like that, but it works very well. You can keep the sugar and salt content reasonable, and making a decent sauce is really simple.

Got any good recipe for flatbread ? I tried few but kinda got mildly dissatisfied with most I tried. Or annoyed that they took enough work that I might as well be making pizza.

I got food processor nearly just to make pizza dough without much mess. Just one big batch that then gets mostly frozen after for fast pizza on upcoming weeks.

Flatbreads I prefer to use as base for essentially a grilled sandwich or to put some leftovers between 2 and heat it up as sort of "quesadilla"

> Pizza gets a bad rap healthwise, but when it's made at home it can be perfectly healthy.

Eh, half of that will still be crust and that's basically calories-only. I would still not call it healthy unless you replaced so many "traditional" pizza elements that it stopped being a pizza and became just some round bread-like carrier for ingredients.

Being able to fit within healthy eating, sure, but still something that would be hard to eat day to day unless you got high daily calorie burn.

>Got any good recipe for flatbread

I don't remember where I got this, but I have it memorized.

6 C bread flour 4 tsp rapid rise yeast (breadmaker yeast) 2 tsp salt 2 tsp sugar 2 Tbsp olive oil

Mix 5 C flour, yeast, salt, sugar and oil in stand mixer or by hand. Add the last cup of flour (or possibly more, depends on temp and humidity, etc) until the dough is no longer sticky.

Dump out dough, knead by hand a bit until it's soft and smooth. Add flour as needed. Make a ball, put in greased bowl, spray top with cooking spray, cover with towel and let rise until doubled, about an hour.

Dump out risen dough, punch down and knead a bit more, then divide into 16 pieces (8 if you're doing pizza crust sizes). Make balls from the pieces, cover with towel, and let rise a second time, about 30 mins.

Flatten out balls into rounds, can use a rolling pin but can also do by hand. Gently stretch to reach desired size. Cook the bread on a cast iron griddle or pan set to medium to medium high heat, about 1-2 mins per side.

Kids love every step of this process. You're supposed to be able to freeze the flatbread if you want, but I never have because it's gone in a couple of days, as I have a big family. I also use 3 Tbsp of olive oil instead of 2 for the extra fat calories. Most of the sugar is used up by the yeast, this is not at all sweet. You can certainly add herbs or whatever, but we use these for gyros, mini pizzas, dipping in hummus or tzatziki, pita mozz, that sort of thing.

It's dead easy, and as I said, if you do it with kids it's great fun.

I cook it for a sec on stove to get that bottom crust then shove it to a oven. Totally worth for me for that cheese.

Never got the stove-only right but maybe I just don't have right pan for it

previous discussions: - The physics of baking good pizza [2018] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17437229] - The Physics of baking good Pizza [pdf] [2021] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26142082]

Ok, what's the verdict on using pizza stones?

There's also"baking steels", which are like stones but make of steel available on the market. That's the brand name but there perfectly good knock offs available. The heat transfer dynamics are probably preferable, and the steel can't crack in two under thermal shock.

I've been happy with mine.

I'm also happy with mine, but I feel even the knockoffs are way too expensive for what they are.

you can also "make your own". i went to a metal working shop and was able to get a 3/8" sheet of steel cut to the dimensions of my oven and they even rounded the edges for me. It was only about $45 ~5 years ago.

You can find ready made ones for that price nowadays.

I ordered a similar piece of 1 m^2 6 mm. steel slab, and asked for the shop to cut it into normal sizes that fit my oven. Now I have five oven steel plates for € 105.

I've tried pizza stones in my oven, but I get far better results with a pizza screen. Bought a 5-pack from Amazon for $20 and never looked back.

Cast iron also works better than stones I found.

I worked at a Dominos Pizza as one of my first jobs. Back then, they still used real pizza ovens not the conveyor blow-dryers they use now. They ran at about 650 degrees F IIRC. We used screens directly on the bottom of the oven, which was cordierite.

It took some skill to bake pizza consistently in those, and also not get burned. That is why they were replaced by the conveyor ovens, which any idiot can use but which also produce an inferior pie.

I used to make pizza with a stone, but got a Roccbox outdoor oven a few years back and have never regretted it. Massive upping in my pizza game.

Seconded. Making pizza well requires specialised equipment.

In my case, a Gas-fired Ooni that reaches 500C / 930F at the back, and comes with a ceramic "stone"- As does the roccbox.

Having a pizza oven changed the game.

At my house we have this thing that's 8 ceramic tiles in an aluminum tray, that we got as a gift. The tiles have gradually cracked over ~ 20 years, but they still work. The rest of the family likes them better, they transfer heat to the bottom of the pizza quickly when it goes into the oven. You do have to figure out how to slide a pizza on and off of them. They "season" kind of like an iron pan -- we don't wash them after every use. Then again our perforated aluminum pizza pan is also heavily seasoned and we don't scrub it either.

When the tiles finally crumble to bits, if I don't find identical replacements, I'll probably get a piece of steel. I wonder how aluminum would work... I sometimes see pieces of it in the scrap bin, with small holes drilled and tapped, but I don't think that would adversely affect pizza.

I've read a lot about pizza making, and have satisfied myself that the home cook needs to give themselves some leeway as to how "authentic" or "particular" they want to be about it. Depending on where you live, it might be better than commercial pizza by default. You can make it as heavy or light on cheese as you want, and maybe not feel bad about having it more often. You can surround it with salad, wine, and the company of your fellow humans. As one who really doesn't enjoy restaurants at all, the home cooking experience is just better.

Similar dough and process leads to nice foccacia and bread sticks.

And, how would Italy have risen to greatness as a nation if there was no margin of error on making pizza at home?

Experiment and enjoy!

Aluminum has low thermal mass but high heat conductivity. So the heat transfer to the pizza would be fast, which is good, but there wouldn't be a lot of it unless you had a really thick chunk of aluminum.

Aluminum would not be good. It’s too thermally conductive, so it isn’t a good “heat capacitor” the way brick or steel are

Tou could try something as an oven steel, like https://misen.com/products/oven-steel

I bought a similar piece of 6 mm. steel slab at an online shop (in NL, Misen doesn’t ship to here).

In their testing of multiple models, America's Test Kitchen found that stones are fine, but steels seem to get better results because the metal transfers heat into the dough faster:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2jmvqHVBpQ

> steels seem to get better results

In a multi-purpose electrical kitchen oven, sure.

In a hotter, dedicated gas pizza oven such as a Ooni or Roccbox, the supplied ceramic stone works perfectly, and a steel would cook too fast.

Yes. When we first got our baking steel I tried putting it on our outdoor gas grill as it can get up a bit over 700F. Let that thing heat up for a good hour, put the pizza on the steel and nearly burned myself from the steam that came off. Result was a charred bottom crust and raw top crust. Granted part of that was because the grill itself doesn't heat from the top as well as a real oven.

Now we use the steel only in the oven, which gets up to about 525-550F, and our outdoor Ooni.

My grill gets to 600F, and I put the steel on there, it doesn't take too long to preheat. But yeah, the bottom will be char before the cheese melts, so I pull it after about 90s, and then finish the top with a searzall. Something like 5 minutes total per pie, two cooking at a time. Fun party activity to have two people working on them

> Now we use the steel only in the oven, which gets up to about 525-550F, and our outdoor Ooni.

Should I read that as "we use the steel only in (the oven, and our outdoor Ooni)" or "we use (the steel only in the oven), and our outdoor Ooni".

If it's the former, then why, and how?

If the latter, have you considered using a semicolon as high-precedence comma, e.g. "Now we use the steel only in the oven, which gets up to about 525-550F; and our outdoor Ooni."

The role of a pizza stone is to provide heat from the bottom. The important part is how much heat is released over what time. If you have an oven that is very hot, you find yourself needing a stone that doesn’t transfer as much heat (e.g. made from clay) , because your bottom will burn (with a coridierite stone for example). In ovens, you need all the heat you can get. From what I’ve heard baking steels work best for ovens.

A stone also captures some of the moisture being released, slowing the drying process and allowing the dough to expand for longer. Not likely to affect pan pizza, but important for bread. Source: Bouchon Bakery Cookbook by Thomas Keller and Sebastien Rouxel

Best option is to get a big cast iron pan, put the pizza together on it, then start it on the stove and transfer to the oven on a high rack and finish with the broiler for the last minute or two.

Home pizzas are also better made slightly thicker with a little bit of oil in the dough like pizzerias with deck ovens do, the super thin Neapolitan style pizza with leopard spots are tricky even with a proper oven.

This is not the best option if you want to make two or more pizzas in a row. Or pizza-dough-breadsticks after the pizza, or whatever. Building a pie in a hot cast iron pan is not fun and you'll have to adjust your technique a little, because it will have started cooking while you were still putting it together. It'd work if you have at least two big cast iron pans, but I doubt most people do.

I do strongly recommend the cast iron technique for beginners, though, since it requires no special equipment at all—otherwise, you'll want a stone, and you're probably gonna have a really bad time unless you also get a peel, since transferring off the stone to e.g. a cutting board when the pie's done isn't bad, but transferring onto the stone without a peel makes the single trickiest part of pizza-baking even trickier. Cast iron technique skips all that, you just need a pan, great way few newbies to convince themselves they can make passable pizza at home, before investing any money in it.

One trick I use is that I hit the top with an electric heat gun or propane torch, just a little, while I'm waiting for the oil (you oil the pan) to start sizzling so I can transfer it to the oven. Only needs a smidge of broiling at the end, that way, less risk of getting distracted and burning it. But that's optional.

Lots of interesting info here with regard to baking pizza (I'm a huge fan of the Baking Steel). However, if you aren't taking the time to make your dough ahead of time (1-3 days), it's all for naught.

No-knead methods (like the Lahey dough) make this trivial. I usually mix and leave overnight for 22-23h, room temp. For longer cold fermentation either I use more yeast or I'll let it develop at room temp before transferring to the fridge.

while that can certainly help the dough flavor, in my experience, it doesn't really affect baking

Good pizza is all about the pineapple!

you're either joking or creating a flame war. [edit]: typo

Joking because I know people get upset about pineapple on pizza. But I legitimately LOVE pineapple on pizza.

hahaha! sure. to each their own.

"Pizza is just an open-faced sandwich"

https://qwantz.com/index.php?comic=3991

Not even that, once you fold the slice in half.

If it looks like a pie just call it a pie instead of pizza

PB&J Pizza?

Yeah pineapple has no place anywhere near a pizza.

The combination of ham and pineapple on a pizza can be very tasty because the sweet and tangy flavor of the pineapple complements the savory and salty flavor of the ham. The combination of these two flavors can create a delicious balance on the pizza. Additionally, the texture of the pineapple can add a nice contrast to the softness of the cheese and the chewiness of the ham. Many people also enjoy the way the flavors of ham and pineapple interact with the tomato sauce and cheese on a pizza. The combination of ham and pineapple on a pizza can be a delicious and satisfying choice.

Don't bring ChatGPT into a pineapple / pepperoni pizza fight.

Turing test

Used to have it all the time and loved it. Haven't had it in years, perhaps because I'm embarrassed about ordering it given all the shade thrown its way.

I love pineapple and jalapeño (and ham or pepperoni). The sweet plus spicy is really tasty..

Bad pizza is all about pineapple to make it OK pizza, but it would also turn a good pizza into an OK pizza.

Yup. The ham ruins it tho, put the pineapple with some good sausage/kielbasa and onion and it's perfect

Pineapple & anchovies! Few combinations work together so harmoniously. :) Salty and sweet; tropical and oceanic; rich glutamate umami and tangy, burning bromelain.

There's people who listen carefully to their desires for flavor, and yield to them; and there are people who subserviate themselves to the bland expectations of society, and live repressed lives of quiet normalcy.

@OfficialNobelPrizeCommittee wanted to make sure you saw this

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