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Comment by xvilka | Hacker News Reader

As a chemist I am not sure it's even possible to create matching alternatives. The stronger links inside molecules and outside, the more they are "alien" to life and environment. While reducing their usage is a good strategy, an outright ban strips technology of useful materials.

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I have no experience or advanced education in chemistry or material sciences. Do you think it's possible that a ban would spur innovation? I imagine our modern world has use cases that can't just disappear or settle for something not as effective.

Unfortunately probably not much - the relevant properties come from the element itself (fluorine) where there literally doesn't exist an alternative. It is possible that some alternatives will come to light, but there is a limited design space and it's not as if people haven't been looking for cheaper[0] and better solutions.

I'm curious as to the scope of this, and what end products are effected. A lot of the best-in-class greases (krytox) and orings (FFKM aka kalrez) rely heavily on fluoro-components. FFKM orings in particular are head and shoulders above everything else by ~100C worth of working temperature range. FKM 'Viton' orings are also incredibly popular and are widely used in automotive applications for temperature and oil resistance in addition to having major industrial uses.

[0]Fluorine is a real PITA to produce and make derivatives from - environmental issues aside functionally equivalent non-fluorine compounds would almost always be cheaper.

They can't be giving up on all organofluorines. They will find substitute polymers with shorter half-lifes

For consumers goods there are already many alternatives though. Ceramic nonstick and nanotech based water repellents come to mind. They are good enough for average people who aren't avid hikers or foodies.

I wouldn't be surprised if they started using other plastics in frying pans one day, meant to be used with some fancy temperature control induction system. Lots of stuff is slippery enough for food applications, you just need one that's safe at the temperature oil gets to.

I doubt my life would be affected much at all without any fluoropolymers in goods I directly own.

A ban does stimulate innovation, as the banning of CFs shows (See Montreal protocol), It spurs innovation for alternatives as there is good money in it and it also spurs innovation by end-users. It is a long and slow process though.

It's a question of priorities. Do you put human (and non-human) lifeforms' health and safety above technology, or not? If all you value is money and efficiency, then you end viewing things through the lens of what technology needs or wants, which is really just an extension of the economic policy of growth, growth, growth.

Before Teflon, people had pans, and they cleaned them. After teflon, people will have pans, and they will clean them.

It's not even a case like lithium batteries where my lifestyle would be significantly impacted if I had to go without.

To some degree prioritizing tech makes sense, if the tech is replacing some other thing that harms living beings more. I doubt an LED factory is environmentally perfect, but the alternative would probably be people using oil lamps in many places.

And some things are just too convenient to give up for 1 in a million possible risks, like WiFi.

But things that only benefit a small enthusiast community in nonessential ways with large costs to everyone else are just too much.

Can you name one essential application where PFAS is really necessary? Something where society would actually be substantially worse without it. I’m not talking about ski wax here.

Only reasonable example is AFFF fire fighting foam. But realistically the amount of liquid fuel fires that you have to fight in this world probably pale in comparison with the production volumes of unnecessary anti-stick cookware and gore-tex fabrics.

Right, I suspected that one ... There seems to be some products on the market already: https://firestopperus.com/pfas-free-firefighting-foams/

Hopefully they don't contain something even more toxic than PFAS?

Firefighting foam is much more likely to contaminate groundwater, so relative production volume is not a good metric for environmental impact.

Gore-tex isn't going to hurt anyone unless there is dumping or leakage in manufacturing.

They are great in lubricants.

Yeah, imagine catheters before ptfe

Ptfe gaskets, lubricants, and maybe certain dielectric or insulator applications.

Orthogonal solvent used for making computer chips. I.e. nothing past the 100 nm node

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