A Sign That Tuition Is Too High: Some Colleges Are Slashing It in Half
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
For example, Adrian College (???) in Michigan costs $40K per year in tuition. WTF?
Landmark College (???) in Vermont - almost $63,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
St Lawrence University (???) in New York - $62,000 per year in tuition alone. WTF?
There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life. In the case of St Lawrence and Adrian: this is where you send your children to if you don't want them to end up "of the world." They're small campuses, in controlled environments, with people from similar backgrounds (i.e. long-time upper middle class, no intentions of "moving up" or down). $40-50k a year for a couple of years is absolutely nothing if you want to make certain your offspring don't end up silly (and if you're of that notion, you surely can cover the cost).
For Landmark, it's obvious from a cursory glance of their info that this is a "special case," and different from the rest: it's a college tailored towards those with learning disabilities. Whether or not this justifies the costs is another matter, but it cannot be seriously lumped in as a regular college for comparison.
T1 is more marketing than substance. Most of the "Ivy League"s have fallen off since coming into public consciousness, and being flooded by people other than those that once brought it a good name. Even the "grinder schools" (e.g. CMU, MIT, etc.) are following in similar fashion (again, appearance over substance). Will they expose you to a wide range of people that may end up being useful towards some end in the future? Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
I'd also be interested in any evidence in the supposed downturn among elite universities - last I saw they are still quite effective at putting graduates into the highest echelons of government and industry. Even the supposedly more iconoclast industries like tech are largely inhabited by graduates of top schools.
The deterioration of quality within the "elite universities" is self-evident if one goes by more nuanced measure than "how high up the industrial and political ladder" its graduates reach. What the contrary is, is a matter of values that I will not be elaborating upon (this conversation has become tiring).
Either you've taught your kids cakes that will stand up in the face of scrutiny and alternative belief systems, or you're peddling junk and hoping that with enough brainwashing and avoiding reality, they won't figure it out.
And I am writing for what the situation is today. However, I did my first year at a private university a long time ago, when the room, board, and tuition was $4,500 for a year, all meals included for the board. This is the equivalent of $18,718.87 per year today. That same school is now $60,000 per year. I went there for one year.
Then I changed directions and went to community college, followed by public state university. I paid $264 per year at the community college which is $1,098.17 in today's dollars or $2,200 per year. My public state univesity was $300 per semester, or $1,247.92 in today's dollars, or $2,500 per year. So this is equivalent to about $10,000 in today's dollars. No sweat.
>There's more to a college than how much money it's going to make you throughout your entire life.
It used to be this way, when I paid what I paid. Now, with costs going to $240,000 to get an undergraduate degree, this statement of yours is .... I can't think of a diplomatic and tactful way of saying it. But it is the worst idea ever. Especially since most degrees you will be paying that date for forever.
>T1 is more marketing than substance.
This is not news. It's always been this way. People knew this 40 years ago, when I was going to universiity. The reason one goes to the T1 schools has always been known to get the connections. Always. I used to work at a firm and they ONLY would hire from T1 universities. Made boatloads of money, too.
>Yes, but it's obscene to even think such a thought.
Only to you and those who agree with you. I don't think that way and there are billions of parents all over the world who would literally chop of their right arm to get their kinds into Harvard, Stanford, or any T1s. So I'm sure you are outnumbered there.
The only reason you think it is obscene is because you have some idealogical glasses on about what "should be" in some kind of perfect world.
Finally, I noticed zero differences from the small private university vs the public state university. I think if one develops a good personality and isn't socially awkward, then one can succeed no matter where they go. But for sure, with a Stanford or Harvard degree, the world really is your oyster. For sure. You can do anything with an elite degree, comparatively speaking.
I did get a sense of who was extremely motivated and smart, and, by and large, those people have been the most successful, not the ones who came from money. The ones who came from money were more likely to take 'interesting' vs lucrative jobs, but most of the advantages of networking are knowing other highly motivated people who are at the top of other fields, but knowing rich people.
Apart from that, classes at top schools go faster and teach you more, and if you want to, you can take more of them for free. So many students get 5-7 years of mid-tier college content in 4 years, which tends to produce a better trajectory for lifetime earnings.
imo the reason to go to such a place is the lifestyle. The opportunity to make some friends as an adult while you still have a hefty amount of time for leisure; adjust your lifestyle from whatever shape it took in a traditional high school experience; and connect with a group of peers of whatever wealth / academic interest group you prefer is pretty great. Not to say this can’t be done in a community college, but I would imagine it’s less of a dorm vacation.
But most don't get that, and with many private universities at $250K for 4 years, it simply is the worst choice someone can make - to be saddled with that debt. Unless as also stated elsewhere, if you go to a T1 school.
I actually did go to my first year to a small private university but that was long ago when it was reasonable. $4,500 for room, board, and tuition. That same exact university is now $60,000 for the same thing. And bringing $4,500 to present day, that is equivalent to about $18,000.
I saw zero difference in lifestyle myself. I think this is just one of the things that small universities say to justify their fucked up tuition price. Maybe 40 years ago, you can go for lifestyle, but now....no fucking way. How is a lifestyle worth $250,000?
Yes, in a community college it didn'th happen, but it did when I went to the next 2 years at public university in a university town.
Also, at the community college, actually I did meet people and hung out with them, as well as made excellent friends elsewhere that I still am friends with.
But the whole "dorm vacation"" idea is a loser idea, unless you have a full ride. I can think of a lot of other vacations that I could afford with $240,000. The reason to go to university is one single reason these days - to get one single piece of paper. You are paying for one sheet of paper. That's it. Today. Not 40 and 50 years ago...then it was ok to go for the "experience" and I mean that. But not now. Hells no. Those days are long gone. Shit, you could get a degree in English or History or whatever you wished because you could easily pay for university. Now....best only to get a computer science or business degree. For anything else, just learn on Udemy or Khan academy. No other degrees pays back the cost of college.
By the way, here in California, one can go to community college and 2 years of California State University and get a university degree for $15,000 to $20,000 in total. Total cost of a degree (not including room, board and books but one has to pay that anywhere - tuition is issue). Best deal in the world.
For people whose best available alternative is not to go to college at all, I’d recommend community college + 2 years at a state school with no hesitation. In other cases I don’t think it makes sense to paint with such broad strokes - it depends on the particular student’s career aspirations and the particular college’s aptitude at positioning students to succeed in that field.
I volunteer with a non-profit trying to fix this problem. Check us out?
I think the major issue is communication ability, social abilities, and all that. Someone can have the "ideal best" education, but without social skills, it all does not matter.
I've risen to the top of many (small, small) organizations because I understood about social skills and finding out who you need to know and get to be friends with in a company. Being friends with the right people gets you far, far, far ahead of anyone else.
I've also got all my jobs through cold outreach. I don't care, I'm pretty fearless and have done a shitload of tradeshows, and sales, and all kinds of stuff like that.
I think the thing that hold most people back is social skills and political skills and the ways one can become known as the experts in their industry.
It's all on youtube, if you look. Social skills, small talk, business politics, dressing appropriately (I spent a LOT of time at high end men's stores and read GQ from cover to cover for years). https://www.gq.com/ How one dresses is extremely important. Read it for a year or two, go to high end men's stores - Saks Fifth Avenue for example - https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/mens - go in, try stuff on. Look around.
I have friends that didn't go to university and are making mid to high six figures. If they can, so can you. Don't let your own mind defeat you, make it your ally.
I think this is generally true, but for me it was actually cheaper to go to a private university due to scholarships from the private school and zero financial aid from the public one.
But most private universities are $30-40K/year in tuition. I, for one, am an idiot and qualified for zero kinds of scholarships or aid. You're one of the smarties, so good on you!
The lead example, Colby-Sawyer, seems to be “non-elite” only in that traditional evaluations of elite status rely largely on graduate/research programs, and its a baccalaureate-only institution, and apparently one of the better (despite being small) undergraduate institutions in the region.
> Does it serve the public good for them to be eligible for federal student loans?
Federal student loans shouldn’t exist, but make no less sense at schools like Colby-Sawyer than any others.
> Tuition at our local community college is $4,000 a year.
Comnunity colleges generally do not have baccalaureate degrees, and do not substitute for schools that do any more than those schools substitute for graduate schools.
> Why divert public resources supporting these extraneous colleges?
Because they aren’t extraneous.
> It seems like expensive cargo culting to send all these ordinary students to expensive universities that ape the blue blood trappings of Harvard and Yale.
Colby-Sawyer very much does not ape the trappings of Harvard and Yale, and one of the draws of schools like it is that the focus is on undergraduate education, not graduate research with undergraduate programs as an afterthought among faculty duties.
(OTOH, that list makes it pretty clear what makes it something a community college won’t substitute for, since those are mostly bachelor’s programs, plus a professional masters; with the few associate’s programs in health sciences being the only thing that most community colleges might be able to provide, even before considering qualitative differences.)
Even this is changing - many of our community colleges in Washington state now offer a BA, especially designed for non-trad students who are returning to the classroom and/ or need a more flexible schedule.
Apparently community colleges and Ivy League schools, and nothing else, I would assume from the Harvard/Yale reference.
This model works pretty well except it isn’t very transparent until you apply and get a financial aid offer. This can lead to some people not even applying because they think they will never be able to afford it. So a one price for everyone regardless of talent/need is making a comeback.
only until the government stops lending tuition money to anyone with a pulse will the true, economic cost of higher education come down. in order to do that, a politician will need to commit political suicide to propose such legislation, which will never happen.
couple that with the "go to college and get a good job" mentality in the US and it's no surprise nearly all US high school students feel compelled to borrow a truck-load of money and go to college.
why do we look down on the trades? i have friends who never went to college, learned a skill, and are making gobs of money (with no debt to service!).