And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.
It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their range in weather like this, but that’s estimated. The verified numbers are far lower?
I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon monoxide poisoning or stinking up the garage.
Aside: I wish people in this country would stop reporting wind chill temps as if they're some sort of accurate measure of anything. They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly.
And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving.
It matters in the sense that a parked car in the wind will cool to ambient temperature faster than it would when the air is still, but not in the sense that it will ever get colder than the actual still-air temperature. Wind chill affects rate of cooling, but (in the absence of evaporation) not the actual low temperature that is reached. Since the concern with loss of range or or starting capacity usually has to do with how the batteries perform at at extremely low temperatures, it's probably closer to true to say that "it does not matter".
Isn't heating the cabin also a major component of the concern? That's where heating the cabin on grid power would help get some range back (assuming the battery is fully charged; if it's mid-charge then you're just shifting the grid power from charging to heating so the range will continue to suffer).
Certainly the car is affected by wind in cold temps. But that's something else that we would measure entirely differently.
And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?
However the speed of air over the car while driving is unrelated to the airspeed that meteorologists use to calculate the wind chill in your local weather report
Depends on your interpretation of "properly". Since 2001, the wind chill numbers for US, CA, and UK are based on a "bare face": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_...
Wanting to know how cold it's going to feel on one's face seems like a pretty reasonable need. At the very least, to know when to break out the balaclava.
That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you need to know the wind chill.
If it's 25°F out no wind, vs. 25°F out but it's 5°F with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need to put on during my morning walk.
Wind chill is a very accurate measure for judging what to wear. How do you think it's not accurate? It's literally an equation that accounts for the fact that wind makes you colder. You can scientifically, objectively measure the faster cooling effect of wind on an object. (Granted there are marginal differences in its effect on a human body depending on one's height and weight, but that still doesn't make it subjective.)
If you can figure out how to dress based on either one equally well, then it comes down to what else can be gleaned from windspeed vs from windchill. I would tend to agree that windspeed is more valuable, as it's better at readily telling you if an activity you're planning to do, which is only possible under certain windspeeds (like using a tent or something), will be doable.
I don't care about the wind speed as a separate number because it's useless to me except in how much it converts to wind chill, since I'm not going outside to fly a kite.
Perhaps I simply don't understand the concept of dressing to be windproof or not. Virtually all winter outerwear is "windproof" enough. People aren't usually going outside for an extended period of time in a cable-knit sweater as their outer layer.
Also -- you do understand that the wind still makes you colder regardless of how windproof your clothing is?
Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block heaters, etc.
It has a whole system dedicated to maintaining its temperature within ideal ranges.
They don't die in cold weather. I've never heard of one doing so.
The only issue with cold weather is reduced range. So just make sure you buy one with a battery big enough to handle your commute even with reduced range in cold. Which is pretty much all of them these days, honestly.
The nice thing about EV’s is you can have them warmup while plugged in an unheated parking space. The bad thing is cars are poorly insulated so at ultra low temperatures they need to use a lot of energy to keep warm.
Just like people have been doing with ICE cars for literally decades? This has been super common since at least the 80s and probably even earlier, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Standhei...
It's called a block heater, it's normal for most parking spaces in cold countries to have sockets for these.
It might not seem like much, but not everyone is local.
In the mid 70's my uncle left Edmonton to do his doctorate in the Bay Area, and had his classmates at Berkeley convinced that his big Dodge Charger was electric because of the block heater cord on the front of it :-)
For EV’s, the chemistry will have issues at low temps (fixed with battery warmers), and it has to use propulsion energy to heat the cabin, both of which will cause some loss of range.
As long as the battery doesn’t run down too low though, it’s a decent choice if other things are engineered correctly.
This has been a common feature for like ... idk, 20 years? I think even the 80s W214 had this option, although that used a separate burner system instead of batteries.
High end cars had that feature for years. Lower end ones used various block heaters / car heater boxes / webastos.
That aside, never understood the value of "pre heating" the car interior. If it's that cold, you're wearing a coat and gloves (or should be). Start the car, drive off, and you'll have heat within a few minutes.
Living in the bay area it's nice that the Teslas have this capability to warm the interior from 55 to 70 before I get in the car. It means I can leave the house in a t shirt in the morning.
It’s kinda a pain to drive with a big puffy jacket, especially once the cabin gets warm.
I’m often in this position: car is in underground car park that sits above zero (Celsius) when it’s far colder outside, so I hand-carry my jacket and keep the vent off until the engine heats up.
Essential safety equipment while driving in the cold.
Almost all ICE cars I've seen sold in Nordic countries during the past 30 years have an outlet on the passenger side to power these. I think these have been a thing since the 70s though.
Not everything is burning dinosaurs.
EV heating and cooling is far superior to warming up a gas vehicle.
Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason.
If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the Russian option of having a large candle below the oil tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine) for pre heating. The more mainstream option is plugged in electric heating of coolant water.
I remember from my days in the Swedish army that there was a pre heating scheme for the drivers where specific spots on trucks APC's and such should be heated by gas light.
Usually it is sufficient to start the engine, clean the windows from ice, and then get going. A short engine running time without load for letting oils and fluids melt is only sane. Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful.
>Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason.
My German BMW 7 series definitely had remote start (and an auxiliary heater too). Maybach GLS has an auxiliary heater.
These are hardly uncommon features in vastly cheaper cars either. Various Webasto systems have been around for ages, often installed by OEMs.
Americans value comfort and they get it. Europeans want it too but they can't afford it (taxation and energy scarcity)
Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature. If it were about energy and economics, wouldn't that be banned also?
In any case, not all indoor parking is climate-controlled. It's nice to be able to remotely warm (or cool, in summer) the cabin to a pleasant temperature before you arrive! 32F is still pretty chilly.
Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature.
Remote cabin heating in a gas car requires a "remote start" feature, which is illegal in many European countries - particularly Germany. This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.
> This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.
It's a common feature in fancy cars and has been so for ages. Most EVs definitely fall into the fancy car category.
Where as most EVs have a "remote HVAC control" feature - even the pretty basic ones. And EVs, of course, will cool the cabin in summer time as well, something that an auxiliary heater can't do.
But aren't most premium new ICE cars in Europe now (mild) hybrids anyway? Why not use the big 48V battery to power an electric aux heater? Surely way cheaper, simpler, and less dangerous?
It's almost perfect English -- it's called an oil pan ;-)
https://www.amazon.com/KENUOS-Thermostat-Self-Adhesive-Dipst...
Fixed for EU. End result is same, ICE car warm.
And it's weird that it is allowed in Europe, as it has more emissions than a normal engine.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210909123913.h...
When it runs it heats the coolant and circulates it through the engine block.
Newer ones can also talk to the ECU to open the heater core valve and fans to pre heat the interior too. They also can use either SMS messages or an app to turn on remotely if you don't want to use fixed timers.
If I did that with a gas car, I'd get carbon monoxide poisoning.
And every year in the US, at least 430 people die from accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.
Not even close! The Gulf Stream keeps them nice and toasty. Tromsø or Hammerfest, for example, sees wintertime overnight lows similar to e.g. Worcester, Massachusetts (28 degrees of latitude further south). A far cry from places like North Dakota where the daytime highs in December and January are colder than the overnight lows in Tromsø, let alone places in inland Canada.
Remote start has been a common feature of many ICE vehicles for a long time.
Contrary to the knee jerk reaction some people seem to be having, this isn't an conspiratorial attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of Real Americans(TM).
I don't understand the reaction, anyway - ICE vehicles plunge in range with cold temperatures too, and there are a bunch of reasons why EVs seem well-suited to rural life.
The range reduction doesn't mean squat when the longest average commute in the US - Maine - is 10 miles. Who cares if your 300-350 mile EV only gets 200 miles, when that's still 20 days of commuting, and every hour your car is in your garage, it's "gassing up" with no intervention on your part beyond a few seconds to plug in a cord when you get home?
FYI, looking at a smattering of temperature charts, "much colder than 20 degrees for extended periods" is a slight exaggeration for Minnesota.
Regardless, I agree there’s still good use cases for EVs in cold climates.
This is interesting. I wonder if large capacitors could alleviate this: somewhere to quickly dump the regen energy, and charge the battery with it at some slow rate equivalent to the long-term average regen load. Not only would it help in cold situations where the battery can't be charged quickly, but also situations where the battery would be healthier if not charged quickly, which is always.
Are you sure this is related to the cold, and not just that the batteries were fully charged so that regen had nowhere to put the energy?
[Edited to add]: I say this because I see this in all types of weather: I live on the top of a hill, and if the car is fully charge there will be no regenerative braking when heading down the hill.
Edit: Just looked through r/Fargo and found this thread on EVs here https://www.reddit.com/r/fargo/comments/wvdud0/evs_in_fargo/
’d also be interested in seeing it colder for trips back to ND, sure. But the majority of folks in the US live in places where it isn’t as brutal as a North Dakotan winter, so doing a study at 20 F seems reasonable to me.
I’ve been excited for EVs all my life. But there’s a certain level of propaganda that’s come with them.
Explicitly talking about their downsides seems to be taboo. Like you’ll get downvoated or banned on many social media platforms for doing it.
EVs are presented as a panacea, doing everything an ICE can do, only better. It's not true. There are tradeoffs.
You have to consider what the pushers are saying and if there’s sufficient pushback when they’re misaligned.
Currently that doesn’t happen. Currently you face everything up to deplatforming for speaking against the narrative that EVs are the one true solution.
It's a bit ironic you claim "propaganda" and "downvotes".... in the most upvoted, top thread on this post, a thread which is highly skeptical/negative to EV.
These days I find it difficult to find real-world data or anecdotes from EV real owners amongst the tidal wave of gasoline vehicle operators predicting how terrible an EV would be (and justifying their ego/decision to not buy one).
You'll note it's RARE that the article is negative towards EVs, only the comments. Because it's pro-EV, all the time.
Maybe some more Northerners should join Recurrent?
The UPS drivers here will soon have a couple EV delivery trucks. I talk to them all the time so perhaps that will be useful data I can relay. It won't be graphs, just happy or grumpy driver anecdotes. I hope they give the drivers good heaters.
Norwegians alone account for ~5-10% of Tesla's global sales in recent years.
I don't think it's far fetched to assume that at least one tenth of all Tesla vehicles (and other EV vehicles in that price class) are driven in areas that do routinely experience longer periods below that temperature. It's likely much more than that, because in Europe you can easily find these temperatures many places far south of Norway.
It absolutely does get that cold: For most of January 2021 the average daily temperature was below 20F in Oslo (21/31 days), dropping as low as 3F average and 0F for the lowest recorded temperature. February 2021 wasn't much warmer, only creeping above 20F in the second half.
https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/no/gardermoen/E...
https://www.wunderground.com/history/monthly/no/gardermoen/E...