Handwritten complaint to the court by alleged CIA Vault 7 leaker | Hacker News Reader

Handwritten complaint to the court by alleged CIA Vault 7 leaker

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189 pointsbarry-cotter89 comments

Primary source: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6359557/979/united-stat... (maybe the URL could be changed to this?)

Schulte's lawyer then filed this response to the court: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6359557/980/united-stat...

> Immediately upon receiving the Court’s Order and the two letters sent to the Court by Mr. Schulte, I tried to contact the BOP. I telephoned the legal department. No one answered the phone. There is no voicemail option available, and I could not leave a message. I emailed legal and got no reply. I emailed the BOP group email asking for a response and for an emergency legal call. I received no response. I repeated the entire procedure again this morning – and was told by the person who answered the MDC phone that no one in legal answers the phone and no voice mail is available. The person declined to give me her name.

> In its email this morning, the government informed that it had emailed the BOP, attached the Court’s Order and Mr. Schulte’s letter, and had received a response from the BOP. I asked the government for a copy of those emails and also asked that they copy Mr. Schulte’s counsel on future emails between the BOP and the government about our client’s medical issues. The request, I made clear, was limited to being copied on emails regarding Mr. Schulte’s health and the BOP’s response to the medical issues. The government refused to do so. I note that defense counsel copies the government and BOP on our emails on medical issues because doing so helps protect Mr. Schulte’s health and safety.

> I asked the government for a copy of those emails and also asked that they copy Mr. Schulte’s counsel on future emails between the BOP and the government about our client’s medical issues. The request, I made clear, was limited to being copied on emails regarding Mr. Schulte’s health and the BOP’s response to the medical issues. The government refused to do so. I note that defense counsel copies the government and BOP on our emails on medical issues because doing so helps protect Mr. Schulte’s health and safety.

What a wonderfully clear demonstration on the government's part as to the level of importance to them of his health and safety.

For what it's worth, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly unusual about the conditions he describes, it's just another day (month, year, decade, life sentence) for any prisoner at a supermax prison like ADX Florence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

Of course, the facts that this is considered normal in the US and that anybody is in there for non-violent offenses are outrageous, but here as ever the US penal system is the wild outlier of the Western world.

Are "speakers blasting 24/7" normal?

It’s pretty wild that you can get multiple life sentences for espionage or planned (but not committed) crimes.

High security or generally poor conditions are one thing, and maybe expected in prison. But if the description provided is accurate that's torture, which is illegal even in the US. The "get out of jail free" card is that the authorities then twist the definition in a manner where the same thing is only torture when any other country is doing it.

The Stasi would be extra proud of the US.

"American Exceptionalism"

We don't excel in many categories, but we've got sick, obese, and jailed on lock.

Seems like it's supposedly written by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Schulte

Let's say all the charges on that page are true, and on the other side, take even half the allegations in his letter seriously...still, why are we treating a prisoner like this? Is it helping something?

> why are we treating a prisoner like this? Is it helping something?

Yes. It is deterring whistleblowers. The government has an interest in spying and torturing people who expose how they do that deters whistleblowing.

> In the annals of national security, the Obama administration will long be remembered for its unprecedented crackdown on whistleblowers. Since 2009, it has employed the World War I–era Espionage Act a record six times to prosecute government officials suspected of leaking classified information. The latest example is John Kiriakou, a former CIA officer serving a thirty-month term in federal prison for publicly identifying an intelligence operative involved in torture. It’s a pattern: the whistleblowers are punished, sometimes severely, while the perpetrators of the crimes they expose remain free.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/obamas-crackdown-w...

Not sure if I would classify Schulte as a "whistleblower" - the CIA is an espionage agency, and the stuff he leaked contains details on how the CIA performs electronic espionage, i.e. how it does its job. So AFAIK it's not as if he exposed some illegal activity on the CIA's side?

> it's not as if he exposed some illegal activity on the CIA's side?

Lol. So you're saying their espionage is legal?

Espionage makes the world more predictable, and hence less dangerous.

Hacking people and steal their data is pretty much illegal, especially if done on non-US (or other in case of other spyers) soil.

There is no difference between some drug cartel mercenary and CIA agent from both legal and moral perspective of any other country citizen, and humanity and human rights are much more important than business of any particular country.

At least mercenaries do that for some real value, and not some vague abstract and undefined bullshit like "national interests".

Whistleblowers of any spy agencies as well organised crime organisations are heroes, if their whistles help to defend humanity from each of those criminals.

Agreed, and the other thing to keep in mind is that he leaked all this stuff because of a personal grievance, not to expose any sort of wrongdoing.

Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning had similarly corrupt motives, despite popular but misguided opinion that they are noble whistleblowers of government evil.

This is what decades of two parties trying to outdo each other on being "tough on crime" looks like. These punishments do act as a deterrent to whistleblowing but that's not really why they were instituted in the first place. Prisoners are a really easy demographic to throw under the bus for political gain(not like they can vote) so you get these sorts of barbaric conditions for an ever increasing subsection of the prison population.

Prisoners in most countries can vote, to stop exactly things like this happening.

Prisoners can vote, it’s people with felonies in and out of jail that have a hard time voting in a lot of states.

Not in the US. Felon prisoners in DC, Vermont, and Maine can vote. That's it: https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-...

You don’t have to be felon to be in jail/prison. There are a lot of people locked up that didn’t commit felonies.

He was known to be edgy, anger easily, and tended toward crackpot behavior.

From all outward appearances, the CIA wants to break him. This would not seem unusual for them.

Wikipedia has a barebones overview. I'd probably ignore the child porn allegations - that's a common way to smear folks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Schulte

>I'd probably ignore the child porn allegations - that's a common way to smear folks.

'Schulte referred to the child pornography he was accused of possessing as a "victimless crime"'.

Yeah, I'm not sure why you'd defend yourself like that in such a situation.

It is a legitimate defense strategy - and one that actually has valid points, at least for stuff like anime "CSAM". IMO, societies should focus more on preventing the creation of real-life CSAM:

- teach children from a young age in an appropriate way about sex including what the names of genitalia are, so that in a court examination you don't have to argue about what "down there" means, and consent. Children can only report abuse if they have a third party telling them that what they experience is not normal.

- provide infrastructure for potential pedophiles to get help. In Germany, we have the campaign "Kein Täter werden" since 2005 and oh boy, that was a mess to get started due to the (justified) public stigma against pedophiles, but it ended up preventing thousands of crimes [1].

- for the US: ban home-schooling and force all children through the public or accredited private school system so that (religious) cults can't go and indoctrinate young children into being breeding mares or abuse them with virtual impunity

- provide teachers with enough resources (time and training) that they can spot signs of abuse (and not just sexual, but also physical and emotional!) early on

- provide get-help infrastructure nationwide: anonymous phone help lines, "safe houses" for people of all genders and ages attempting to flee domestic violence and sexual abuse, easy and equitable access to restraining orders, provide CPS with enough financial and staff resources to do their job properly...

Unfortunately, the first three measures are highly politically charged and so won't pass, and the last one is expensive so it won't pass either, and as a result children all over the country end up being abused with no way of getting help or worse, not even knowing that they could get help.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kein_T%C3%A4ter_werden#Ergebni...

Ah, Beier's project.

Director of the one and only known insitute to make trans people in Germany going through TSG (80's law to allow for name change / gender marker change) take a visual pedophile test. (Why? I'm presuming he just likes to acrew more data, no other reason in particular)

I listened to a few public talks and... let's say I have some red flags I'd raise.

If all you have is a hammer...

I think you'll find more pedophiles in the public school system than the home. Biological fathers have very low incidence rates of child molestation and households have limited numbers of people in them. On the other hand you have a building where it is known that lots of children attend daily and is full of people who self selected for whatever reason to be around someone elses kids all day.

My high school pulled two pedophiles out over the last three years alone. During my time there I witnessed a lot of behavior that went right up against the line of what is acceptable by people in adult hindsight probably shouldn't have had access to children.

Those types are common in K12 -- they're used to interacting with folks with less mobility (no car, no job and/or literally disabled) and exploiting that.

It's my understanding my alma mater (is that the right phrasing for your former high school?) still employs at least one, but the two people who told me about her behavior don't seem interested in having her removed from her position and I can't do anything with hearsay.

They often prey on kids victimized by the other set of abusers, the one's who don't abuse kids sexually, but are utter sadists who jump in with the bullies to victimize and other kids who are geeky, queer, or just plain shy they whine cries of false concern that those kids might not just commit suicide.

It was a different time before Columbine -- you had more freedom, but you also would get attacked physically -- nowadays the model seems to be that folks have some kind of cold war until the other side loses their temper, and then the true abuser gets to cry victim.

For context, I actually spotted one of the paraprofessionals from a school I attended in the crowd on Jan 6th -- it's been a perpetual thing for kids of a certain age when Columbine happened that folks are forever fearful of what weird hacker bois like me will do -- but never enough to lift us out of precarity that would allow us to get away from them and their terrible views, because let's be frank: having everyone who's not in the Christian right from my shitty ass township move to Portland or Brooklyn or whatever isn't a sustainable life strategy :-)

> I think you'll find more pedophiles in the public school system than the home. Biological fathers have very low incidence rates of child molestation and households have limited numbers of people in them.

At least in Germany, evidence proves otherwise - almost half the cases in Germany are made by fathers, ten percent mothers, and of the rest a lot of different other degrees of relatives [1].

Preventing sexual abuse must focus on families, because that is where most shit happens.

As for pedophiles in schools, church and sports clubs: yes, these do exist, but are rare in numbers, and the same logic from my first point above applies: When children don't know that what they experience is not normal and that they can report this behavior, they won't.

[1] https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/panorama/sexueller-missbrauch...

I don't read German but I used biological fathers for a reason, does your data include stepfathers? I am familiar with studies like these[0] that indicates a child's lowest risk of abuse is in a household with both biological mother and father, lower even than biological mother alone.

[0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11675811/

[0-2]https://www.center4research.org/child-abuse-father-figures-k...

> I don't read German but I used biological fathers for a reason, does your data include stepfathers?

It does, yes, but it doesn't matter. Abuse incidence from teachers and caretakers is ridiculously low, the utter majority of abuse comes from family members and so that is where efforts should be focused.

You're possibly right on some of those points, but it would be sad to ruin home schooling for everyone. There are a number of very legitimate cases where home schooling can help kids who are having a rough time at school.

> There are a number of very legitimate cases where home schooling can help kids who are having a rough time at school.

In almost all cases where kids end up homeschooled due to having a "rough time", it's because of bullying and teachers and parents not putting a stop to that crap, the rest is stuff like autistic or disabled children who don't get the resources and assistance they need.

I'd rather like to improve the conditions at school, so that all children, no matter their background and (dis)abilities, are well taken care of, and abusive behavior (outside of self-defense, obviously, which is the big problem with modern "zero tolerance" crap) is not tolerated. That is how equitable societies get created.

Well, that's certainly an ideal. In practice of course it's difficult to prevent certain kids from falling outside the system. Kids and circumstances are pretty variable.

[ For reasons, in my own ideal world, the biggest experts on a particular child (their parents) would be more involved in their education to begin with. Long story I won't get into here.

But in that particular scenario, one would frankly still need (some) schools. This is for the same reason as before: some kids would end up falling outside that system too. ]

What is with the sledging of Home Schooling.

Ok, in some cases it's because the parents are religious or over controlling nutcases, but in many cases home schooling is the final choice of parents whose kid is not able to learn in the traditional school environment for many reasons.

  I'd suggest that in most of these cases the parents would far prefer that their child attend traditional schooling so they can get on with their lives, but the payoff of calmer home life and a kid who is actually getting an education.

Ok, case study of one, but in our experience we've gone from a family subject to daily arguments about getting to school and seeing absolutely no value achieved when actually getting the kid through the school gate, to a happy well adjusted (call it normal) kid who is achieving decent educational outcomes and having a rich social life.

home school does not always equal nutcase parents. Thanks you, rant off.

The UK does 1, 4 and 5.

Even as an adult, when I went to my doctor about haemorrhoids, she brought a nurse in the room for the examination.

That one seemed odd to me, what I'm wondering if it's hentai images. I can't think of any other way for it to be a victimless crime.

>I'd probably ignore the child porn allegations - that's a common way to smear folks.

Excuse me, but what the fuck kind of logic is that? Do you have a citation?

Maybe back in the days of WinMX, Kazaa, and anonymous FTP servers folks would abuse the spirit of the strict liability nature of CSAM paired with the fact it's difficult to truly erase terrible things you accidentally encounter... but nowadays it's REALLY easy to stick to sources of porn that are legal.

But to be clear... that's not at all what happened here. He didn't spider file sharing sites and get more than he bargained for or something mislabeled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Schulte#Sex_crimes_alle...

>the government found that Schulte had "neatly organized" this material "according to his preferences, and stored it for a period of years."[31] In the government's view, there was "no set of circumstances that can confidently assure the Court that he's not going to continue to try to download child pornography, encourage others to download it and share it and just generally engage in very dangerous sexual activity."... When the government searched Schulte's phone, they found a photograph taken inside the bathroom of his old home.[35] The picture showed an unconscious woman whose underwear had been removed and whose genitals were being touched. She was not publicly named, but was identified as Schulte's roommate at the time. She informed investigators that she passed out one night with no memory of what happened, and that the photograph was not consensual.[2] She was unable to identify the person who took the picture and molested her, prosecutors in Loudoun County said an analysis of Schulte's hands confirmed they were his hands in the picture.

When you recite talking points like that, you're telling on yourself because I assure you most hackers are not running around downloading CSAM and uploading

(And we call it "child sex abuse material", not child porn, to emphasize the folks are victims of abuse... children cannot consent, full stop, and you tell on yourself when you want to ride the lightning of when that consent should start in your porn habits.)

You'd have to apply the same skeptical eye to his letter as well, I'd think.

If the charges that he was using a smuggled phone and directly subverting the courts orders, then these could be seen as reasonable consequences of those decisions; if you assume this person is in full control of their mental health.

If the charges are entirely true, then I think the fair assumption is that this person is not.

I had a cousin who spent years in solitary for a wrongful conviction that was later overturned. She had a hard time re-assimilating and was overwhelmed by almost all social contact for a while. She was freed during covid so we did a drive by "welcome home" type thing, probably for the best because even then she was visibly overwhelmed with anxiety. To see a person freed from that scenario and still mentally and emotionally scarred, unable to enjoy seeing their loved ones, it's incredibly sad, horrifying to know this is happening to so many people right now. To think of how often it's happening for wrongful convictions is even sadder. The state of "justice" in the US is despicable.

Maybe this helps Assange from not getting extradited since this is clearly against international law and many places will not extradite you to a place that commits theses kind of crimes against it's prisoners.

UK has made it very clear that they are not among these places.

They're going along with the abuse, with all the subtlety of an 8 year old girl bully. "Oh, you thought we would care about such things as honesty and decency when it came to you?"

Anyone who's followed the Assange case has seen that little game played out over and over: give him a faint hope that the nightmare will end, then snatch it away with a smirk.

Quite honestly, no person should ever be extradited to US prisons, no matter for which crime. The utterly inhumane conditions in US prisons are well-known and well-documented. Many US prisons are engaged in massive and habitual human rights abuses. On a side note, in my experience only people from the US habitually make "don't drop the soap" prison rape jokes.

There’s really nothing in the letter that sounds like anything except normal jail.

There’s something about 24 hour “speakers” which sounds alarming, but if it were what you think it sounds like he would have elaborated on it a lot more. There are also a lot of people “speaking” in these places 24 hours a day which can be frustrating.

Other than that this looks like deranged whining to me.

You act very confident without proof. There are documentaries of the torture styles the US government used. Speakers that will blast white noise. Sleep deprivation will literally make you go insane.

I’m extremely dubious that this guy is being subjected to noise torture. That is the claim that has a high burden of proof.

If it were true I believe he would write the whole letter about that. Instead he says 5 words about it.

Combined with the rest of it being mostly whining about nonsense… it looks deranged.

If he's 24/7 in a cell losing his mind and twiddling his thumbs, how did he write this letter?

How did he quote those books if he doesn't have access to a library or books?? From memory? That Dickens quote has a "..." in the middle. Who memorises a quote so well that they can abridge it on the fly? Who memorises a quote with an abridgement in it?

If he has no access to any media, how did he cite a recent court case?

What the hell is this shit!?

I was wondering exactly the same. There doesn't seem to be any independent corroboration of his claims either, which to me seems quite suspicious.

As far as I can see, there was no contrition from this guy for the crimes he committed. He even tried to defend his stash of horrific child pornography, claiming that it was a 'victimless crime', making himself out to be the victim instead. I think it's not out of the question that he would continue to fabricate such a world view to try to garner sympathy from others.

Eric Rudolph, the Atlanta olympics bomber, wrote about conditions at ADX Florence previously. It was an interesting read however I don't advise going elsewhere on this site unless you want to see pictures of aborted fetuses and religious ranting: https://armyofgod.com/EricRudolphSuperMaxPrisonIssues.html

why is the US just so casually and callously cruel with imprisonment? abusive use of solitary, terrible conditions in general, forcing people to work for essentially no money, putting people who are not dangerous in "super max" prisons, long and deeply unfair jail terms, etc etc

I'll take "The Banality of Evil" for 200, Alex.

Previously, the government gave him a laptop to help prepare his own defense after he decided to represent himself, but then he copied child porn onto it, so they took it away and he had to use a typewriter.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23126482/220923-halt-...

Sure he did

Do you really believe that?

Or maybe you don't really care about the truth of it, but find it convenient for your career and peace of mind to just go along with whatever his torturers say?

> Schulte referred to the child pornography he was accused of possessing as a "victimless crime"

Whilst im sceptical of these charges, this doesn't really help his case.

Certainly sounds like he is just admitting he has it.

You're quoting the Wikipedia page, it looks like. Do you think Schulte's former employer is too noble to have people working to "advance their perspectives" on Wikipedia?

For all we know the images are stick figures. For all we know they just made up that he said that. It is exceedingly easy to manufacture something like this, when you control all the sources of information.

If you ever wondered how some people in the west could stay Stalinist after his show trials of dissidents, look in the mirror.

No need to invent a shadowy conspiracy theory here.

Some people really are just unrepentant pedophiles, and based on his own words, this guy is one of them.

"No need to invent a shady conspiracy theory here"?

You are aware we're talking about the CIA here? I'm supposed to believe it's unreasonable to think CIA people would smear a guy they personally and collectively hate?

Okay, so, where is your evidence of this?

Much like a fresh account created to defend the CIA's honour, the CIA does not get the benefit of doubt that they would NOT lie to hurt a guy they hate.

No evidence to offer? Not even a scrap? Thought not. Shadowy conspiracy theory it is then.

For all we know, Schulte doesn't exist and the whole thing is Russian psyops.

There would have to be a lot of conspirators involved, that first decided to plant child pornography on this guy's encrypted hard disks and his laptop, and then somehow coerced him into defending himself with the proclamation that it's a 'victimless crime'.

Given how unlikely this is, it's almost certainly the case that he is a pedophile who has trafficked in child pornography with other pedophiles. I don't know about you, but my sympathy level for such people is approximately zero.

No, it would not. Odds are there is something on your hard disk right now that could be classified as child porn, if the accuser was motivated enough.

And imagine you wouldn't get to defend yourself, and no one would speak up and say "Hey come on, obviously that's not remotely CSAM" because they hated you for being a "traitor".

It doesn't take a conspiracy at all, all it takes is a handful of people willing to say "So what, I don't care what happens to such people". Which, you'll notice, is what you're saying right now.

> No, it would not. Odds are there is something on your hard disk right now that could be classified as child porn, if the accuser was motivated enough.

Speak for yourself, there's absolutely nothing in my files that could even marginally be classified as child pornography. I would think this is the same for most people.

With this guy, investigators found hundreds of thousands of photos and videos of child sexual abuse on his disks. And then he tried to defend himself by claiming it's a victimless crime.

I know people like a good conspiracy theory, especially if it involves the government, but this isn't it.

> there's absolutely nothing in my files that could even marginally be classified as child pornography

You're going to run into your Cardinal Richelieu one day, person who signed up to HN two hours ago in order to defend the honour of the CIA.

Announcing what you desire to be true does not make it true.

No, sure. Maybe the CIA won't betray you. I mean, they gain people's trust in order to betray it all the time - that's what spies do - but maybe your trust in them won't be betrayed.

> Speak for yourself, there's absolutely nothing in my files that could even marginally be classified as child pornography. I would think this is the same for most people.

Apparently there's some in the bitcoin blockchain. Never went looking for it personally, but I assume it's encoded the same way as the image of the bitcoin logo in there.

>Odds are there is something on your hard disk right now that could be classified as child porn, if the accuser was motivated enough.

This sounds like projection.

Not everyone blunders through life with a massive stash of questionable pornography.

The criteria for determining what is and is not child pornography are quite clear: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2252A

It does sound like projection. Your link comes down to depiction of “a minor”. How does one prove an image is an 18 year old, even if they are, and not 1 day younger? It’s unquestionable for children but not so clear near the age of 18. I think that is the point of the poster, that it’s really not clear on all porn what age the people are. Even with disclaimers they could be lies.

Please be aware that some of us actually don't amass piles of erotica in our alone time, as if some sort of pornsick squirrel.

The most reliable way of not getting caught out storing dodgy images on your computer is to not procure them in the first place.

And, it's better for keeping a healthy and well-adjusted attitude towards sexual desire, rather than being trained on whatever pornographers want to you see. From an ethical point of view, not being complicit in the sexual abuse that is so rife in the porn industry is also a big plus.

Have you been to any art museums?

Holy cow did previous generations / civilizations love to collect lewd sculptures and paintings.

No, it's not my point. Point is, these are all just accusations from people who think lying about and murdering the people they hate is fine. You're still taking a lot of the torturers claims as true, just on their word.

My position on the claims of the torturers is unknown to you.

My position on the findings of the various juries involved in the various trials is that I should defer to their analysis of the evidence-- and that is the only reasonable position to take in the absence of more information, information neither of us has.

>How does one prove an image is an 18 year old, even if they are, and not 1 day younger?

That's up to the jury. I'll defer to their judgement and in the absence of additional information (information neither of us possesses) that is the only reasonable position to take.

Tinfoil hat type of retorts is not what I expect to read on HN

Well excuse me for suggesting that this guy's employer, whose mission includes lying, betraying and killing people, might not be scrupulously fair in this issue.

This is making me think about Obama's 'we tortured some folks,' and I fear that this is used as a warning/deterrent wherein the message is clear for what awaits Assange if he is extradited.

Worth remembering that this despite people's opinions. This person continues to be innocent until they are proven guilty. They may even actually be innocent. However unlikely it may sound.

Only a terrorist state would subject someone to treatment like that.

For a moment I thought I was reading a letter from a Gitmo inmate.

if any of this is true its utterly fucked.

just have a look into "torture island" stories (riker's) to see how commonplace institutionalized torture is here

firstname bunchofnumbers account heavily dabbling in 'E'-anon (an offshoot of jim watkins qanon?) shit on telegram?

am I a bit off base here in feeling like there's a better primary source for this?

Marcy Wheeler's take: https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1603037689846046721

Haking camra

There is an allegory in eastern religions about our inner world. When you anger the high priest of selfish ambition, your ambition, he locks you up in a dungeon, isolated from all human contact; the dungeon is located right next to the priest's room and right in front of the shrine of madness. That is the nature of this priest's cruelty. CIA was apparently inspired by this story.

Nah, this is probably just normal torture scenarios based on what the human body/mind can handle that psychologists/doctors already know.

Example you can get psychosis if you don't sleep for a lot of time, etc.

can you share the allegory? narrow down the eastern religion? provide a link? my chanda is always all muddled with my tanha.

maybe the two psychologists who designed some of their techniques were lapsed adherents who'd heard the allegory - you never know.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/17/cia-torture-...

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