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Comment by traceroute66 | Hacker News Reader

> Mercedes is a real car company with real engineers and a gold-standard reputation to maintain.

Not only that, but they have a quality reputation to uphold with their domestic (German) and regional (European) market.

Your average discerning German car buyer (i.e. the sort who has a Porsche 911, or a higher-end Audi/BMW/Merc) in their garage will swiftly tell you about numerous problems with the Tesla before they've even sat in it.

Panel gaps, for example. They mean a lot to your average discerning German, and your average Tesla has them by the bucket load.

In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-)

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> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-)

As a German I can certainly say that folks here really pay attention to where cars are manufactured. Tesla Model Y's available on various platforms are boldly advertised as "Manufactured in Grünheide". At the same time people are aware that some domestic models (such as the Mercedes EQS SUV) are solely manufactured in the US and then shipped over, which are sometimes conceived as lower quality as a result.

I currently have a Tesla Model Y and a Porsche Macan. The Macan feels more luxurious, but the Model Y is easier to drive because of its unearthly acceleration.

The biggest thing that Tesla got right besides the acceleration is the value-add features like Sentry mode, the tight integration with the phone, the things like Walk-away locking (although I would very much prefer it lock closer to my car because it's about 40-60 ft away when it locks and it makes me nervous).

The build quality is cheaper, the sound system sucks, and I generally despise how many things are tied to the screen. I want buttons and knobs for the air system, to have to hunt for that on the screen is very dangerous, I hate it.

The Porsche feels more luxurious but it's mindblowing how they get so many things wrong. The dashboard is much too complicated with a lot of redundant buttons. Something as simple as there's no place to put my phone, there's only extremely awkward locations that cause my phone to fly around the car when I go around any turn, which is so dumb in 2022. The backup camera has way too narrow field of view, I've almost backed into 2 cars in parking lots, something the Tesla got right. At least they have Apple Carplay, but activating it is extremely annoying.

I also have BMWs before (X3 and X6) and overall my favorite car of all time is the X6.

Honestly I do not get how they go away with so much touchscreen - that should be illegal honestly. You very quickly learn the buttons and knobs in your car for basic activities and do not even need to look. Not to mention a single point of failure with that touchscreen!

This reminds me of Blackberry saying “enterprise users need a real keyboard” when the iPhone was launched.

Which isn’t to say you’re wrong, a driving experience isn’t the same, but I’m sure that experience was the guiding principle behind Tesla going full touchscreen.

That being said apple put a lot of work on the keyboard experience with haptics and fuzzy hit design to make it as functional as it is. I’m not sure Tesla has done the same level of usability work.

The difference is you are walking / sitting when using your iPhone with the touchscreen.

Trying to find out what mode to be in to turn up the heat when going 70mph is a recipe for disaster no matter how much money they pour into it.

When I look at other road users, I find quite a lot of them are driving when using their iPhones :).

I personally have a theory that there'd be fewer texting and driving accidents if we had BlackBerrys with physical keyboards instead of touch screens.

They get away by cutting corners. The Tesla screen is not built to common automotive screen standards and often fails in inclement conditions or prematurely as a result.

I have no idea why car manufacturers don't have phone holders built in. We're forced to buy cheap crap off the jungle website to suction cup, clamp, or screw into the dash. IMHO it should be a standard like the cigarette outlet.

> the things like Walk-away locking

I think it's actually quite worse in terms of security, as you can use some kind of range extender to pretend that the key is close and open (or even start?) the car.

The Macan is a sports car first, luxury car second. A better comparison would be against against a Mercedes GLC and that absolutely stomps a Tesla Y. Anyone driving with passengers in the car probably doesn’t care about “unearthly acceleration” as much as a quiet, smooth ride, and abundant cameras and safety features. The Tesla Y is on par with a Honda Civic from a decade ago in ride quality.

Fuck panel gaps. Just look at the quality of the interior. You’re paying 100k for a car that has worse quality than a Ford. Everything is plastic, there are no button knobs anywhere, no panel in front of the driver, the leather on the seats doesn’t feel like leather etc. I mean I get it that half the price of the car is in batteries and R&D, but still you can’t even compare it to a 50k Volvo. It’s just crap. And now that the big manufacturers are moving into electric cars Tesla’s got a lot of serious completion to face from companies who know how to treat a customer who's paying big bucks.

If you're paying 100k for a model 3, you're getting screwed.

I was seriously considering a Model 3 for my new car, but I'm so glad I passed.

On the Model 3 subrreddit there are endless post about reliability including ones I never thought would be an issue.

Some recent ones include driver side mirror housing falling off and snowing entering the trunk compartment.

Have you looked at forums for other cars? There’s tons of complaints for every model. I’ve had my model 3 for 5 years with zero issues.

I can't recall mirrors falling off or trunks so poorly sealed as to allow snow inside with other car makers.

Maybe on a Yugo but nothing that purports to be anything better than a cheap as possible econobox.

A quick google reveals similar wing mirror issues with VW [0] and BMW [1].

[0] https://www.speakev.com/threads/wing-mirror-glass-fell-off.1...

[1] https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79640

you can find one-off or rare problems on EVERY single model. For the things that actually matter, Teslas are very reliable on the whole.

> I think Mercedes and other automakers have a good chance to bypass Tesla now since Elno is captivated by his Twitter acquisition.

Do you have any evidence to back up these claims? On what trends are you basing that on?

Do you have evidence that Tesla performs worse now because of Twitter?

Literally do you have any real world bases for this or is that just what you hope will happen?

Serious competition is good!

I just replaced my Audi Q5 with a Tesla Model Y (which... wasn't $100k). No panel gaps, no other problems, and the overall quality feels nicer than the Audi. Shrug!

Anyway, yeah, the next few years look really exciting for consumer EVs. So many announcements in 2022.

The Audi Q5 had issues with the infotainment IMO. It wasn't stock android auto like in my Hyundai. The voice assistant button always routed to the audi voice thing (completely worthless I know what I want google to do, now connect me to google). The buttons felt over complicated.

Although one feature I really liked was that it would tell me what the biggest consumers of power was. I would definitely like to have a car with a heated steering wheel in the winter here, but that isn't in the cards.

Mine was a 2018 Q5. Had a central knob, which I thought was nice for navigating around the screen. But yeah, overall the software and system was pretty lousy. In fact, I was _never_ able to get it to connect to my carplay (or whatever I was supposed to do) to show a map. My wife had that working with her phone. But I couldn't do it! I also couldn't charge my phone and stream music at the same time. And obviously, the software - which already seemed behind the times in 2018 - was never updated in four years. I got in the habit memorizing entire routes from my phone before I drove. It's interesting now to have a car where the map is front and center.

First thing I did with this Tesla is turn off the heated steering wheel for my driver profile. My hands sweat easily, so it was undesirable.

Yeah... it's funny, but I wanted a Tesla real bad before I actually sat in a friend's. The UX sucks. Everything from opening the door to trying to access the AC or glove compartment was a pain in the ass.

Nevermind FSD accidents, I think I'd get myself killed just trying to turn down the heat on that giant touchscreen.

I believe the “leather” is “vegan leather” which is really plastic. I own a MY — the one plus side to it is it isn’t as cold as leather in the winter.

> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-)

Speaking more seriously on that front, there's been the acquihire of Grohmann Engineering.

> In fact, the German in-joke is that the reason Tesla built a factory in Germany is so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps. :-)

Having owned model Ys made in both China and Germany, I can tell you that the germans have not succeeded. The made in China Y was 100% no issues, while the German one looks like it has been in a collision already. Anecdotal, but this seems to be the pattern with cars delivered to Europe.

> Your average discerning German car buyer

I've got plenty of descriptive words for the type of person you described, "discerning" isn't one of them.

>so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps

Not a Tesla owner or fan but I have a question that's really bugging me now: Which customers really care about panel gaps?

Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"?

When has the panel gap became "the benchmark" indicative of car quality beyond the body shell?

Like, if the panel gaps are the only thing you can find wrong in a car, then it must be a really really good car, right?

Is there any proven evidence that the panel gaps corelate to quality and reliability of the rest of the car, or is it just a myth of the car enthusiasts community that got spread around and went too far? I get it, some Tesla are unreliable and built poorly, but it's not because they have big panel gaps. The reverse is also true for many cars, so this isn't a rule.

Sure, if you want to measure and compare panel gaps, then by all means go ahead and measure panel gaps, but please don't pretend they mean anything more than that, and that it's somehow an indicative for the car's overall quality and reliability, because so far there hasn't been any proof of this correlation.

The super rich buy supercars for the increase in their own perceived value (i.e wow look how rich this dude is)

The average joe buys a car because of the value it gets them (because every dollar matters)

Umm, except the cars the average joe buys depreciate in value, while the supercars the rich buy usually apreciate in value, kind of like art, so wouldn't it make more sense that panel gaps are more important for that market?

Does having tighter panel gaps help with the resale value for the average joes?

This isn’t true. Your average super car does not appreciate in value when you consider factors like maintenance and the fact that you have to buy a bunch of other garbage to even be put on the delivery list for a desirable car’s production. For example, actually buying a top spec 911 isn’t feasible if you don’t have a good relationship with your dealer.

Notwithstanding the fact that the market for super cars is nothing like the market for Teslas or 5ers.

Supercars absolutely depreciate in value minus select limited releases (which holds true for non-supercars as well). Look at standard Lamborghini Gallardos, Ferrari F430s/458s, and Aston Martins of any model and you will see that some of these cars are worth less than half what their original buyers paid for them.

Fair point, that was a bad example on my end. Edited.

But my point stands, that panel gap as a benchmark alone is no measure of quality or any other metric.

I think that most car buying is motivated by far far more than delivered value. There's so much status and image wrapped up in cars that thigh there are some who care little about the car, nearly everyone chooses something that fits their perception of themselves.

The reason that there are so many super-expensive pickup trucks on the road is not because people are hauling around things that require a pickup, for example. And when combined with the face that pickup beds are becoming increasingly useless...

What do you mean the beds are becoming useless?

The height of the base of the bed, the height of the sides of the bed, and the lengths of beds are becoming more for show than for practical usage.

Yes that's why car market isn't much practical.

Aren't those cars (McLaren/Ferrari) also horribly uncomfortable and lacking in a lot of other amenities (like sound systems or tech)? It feels like those cars are a completely different category of good, and trying to measure them on the same scale is misguided.

To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control.

>To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control.

I beg to differ. Modern German cars might have panel gaps tighter than a nun's fanny, but their reliability, especially after warranty is over, is so awful than in no way can I say that they represent quality. Those quality cars went away in the late '80s early '90s when the engineers got replaced by the bean counters and cars became white goods with many critical parts outsourced to the lowest bidding contractor, that must look 'cool' in the showroom, but fail the second the warranty runs out, or many times even before that.

To me, the panel gaps are a superficial metric of quality and prove nothing of substance that goes beyond body shell.

Why don't we measure quality by how reliable a car is over time and how long it lasts? Surely that would prove good consistency and quality control on the manufacturer's side, no?

Tight panel gaps only shows how much efort the manufacturer has put in the body, but says nothing about the quality and reliability of the electronics and mechanics, which is what really matters in a car for most people.

Tesla was 19 out of 24 for reliability. BMW was 10th, in a recent survey.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tesla-ranked-n...

Does that prove a direct correlation between reliability and panel gaps, or could it be merely a coincidence?

According to the article:

> "the Audi E-Tron and Volkswagen ID.4 were singled out as being unreliable"

So if Audi and VW are also unreliable then the panel gaps prove as a poor signal for reliability, which was my original point.

Edit after your reply below: Sure, Tesla has poor reliability, but not because it has poor panel gaps. Those two can be completely disconnected. Just because they coincide sometimes, doesn't make this a rule of thumb like some car snobs try to convince you of.

You can easily have cars with great panel gaps that are incredibly unreliable, and vice versa. Panel gaps mean nothing more than panel gaps.

I'm just pointing out that we can have both reliability and tight panel gaps. We have the technology. They are separate things.

As are different models within a single manufacturer. I love my Ford, would highly recommend it, but would never buy or recommend a Pinto or a Bronco II.

The point people typically make is that Tesla has uncommonly poor panel gaps, which point to poor quality and tolerance control in their manufacturing. This is a complex skill that automakers have been refining for 100 years. It is indicative of something, just as the quality of paint job indicates the care and quality with which a hot rod was built.

If you look at reliability among only EV cars they are in the top half.

Sure, I definitely agree reliability is important, and that just because something can be build exactly to spec doesn't mean that spec is going to be reliable.

For me at least, i don't actually think of something like panel gaps as a reliability indicator, but rather it is one of many indicators of whether more quality of life stuff is going to go wrong (ie door rattling, buttons becoming loose or fiddly, etc). These things don't stop me from getting from A to B, but at that price point they're still important considerations.

Aren't those sport cars, basically? Luxury sport cars that don't sell comfort at all - they sell power, speed and "I am cool cause I am powerful and fast" look.

I wonder how on earth those things are allowed on public roads

I wonder the same thing about monstrous pickup trucks in North America. They pose far more of a threat to public safety than any McLaren ever has.

Just the sheer height of modern pickups and SUV is a safety nightmare (for others). I recently walked past a ferrari and I was shocked by how low it is to the ground and how inoffensive it looks nowadays compared to the tanks everyone has.

If a lambo was barreling towards me I could probably just hop over. Not that they would want to go particularly fast anyway in the city, if they care about the underside of the car.

No one cares about panel gaps. A lot of people on HN despise Elon and become relentless pedants when discussing any of his products/initiatives.

If the panel gap is not "neat", which is not the same as "small", then it looks bad.

I don't know if I could find a source, but it would probably be something like Forbes in the '80's: Lee Iacocca (of Chrysler) said that they learned from Japanese collaboration that if they made their gaps wider, then they appeared neater because they appeared parallel. And it was cheaper to make a wider gap, and it was easier for QA to pass the cars. Otherwise the cars would have to be whacked with mallets until the narrow gaps looked right, and that slows the line, and that indirectly adds cost.

[This doesn't mean that the Japanese collaborators were making huge panel gaps on their own cars, it simply indicates that Iacocca('s people) got a certain idea from them]

I care very much about panel gaps. I can afford a Tesla won't risk buying it because that points to shitty QA.

I use to read about the panels gaps on the Tesla and thought so what? Then as more Tesla's started to show up on the road and I saw what they were talking about I finally get it.

The cars looks like they were in an accident and had their body panels poorly repaired/reassembled.

You'll care about panel gaps when there's snow in your trunk or blowing around in your cabin. You also might care that your car looks like it was in an accident and repaired by an amateur.

In a way though you're right - no one cared about panel gaps until Tesla came along because until then even the cheapest of the cheap manufacturers were able to get that right.

I care about panel gaps and one of the reasons I didn’t consider teslas when buying a new car is the build quality.

Not sure how much this matters as Tesla’s sales are really high, but I think this basic stuff is important.

Re: panel gaps. People do tend to notice when they cars whistle and sport leaves, hair from the car washer's brush, and other debris on their body.

I've definitely noticed when Teslas (yes, plural) drive down the highway with their bumper cover hanging off, flapping in the wind.

> Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"?

Average Joes and soccer moms in a typical suburban area cannot even afford Teslas and are extremely happy with their Odysseys, Seinnas and Pacificas. Even an Audi A5 is cheaper than a Model 3 in most cases and Audi's ride quality and cabin noise is extremely better than any Tesla I have ridden in. Audi interiors (though not as good as its other German competitors) beat Tesla by a mile.

> Which customers really care about panel gaps?

Thing is, no one else has them. It's a real achievement for Tesla that the doors don't align with the body when every other car, no matter how cheap, manages to not do that.

What's sold in Europe at least.

So you'll forgive me that I don't trust the rest of the car either.

Source: I've driven a friend's brand new Tesla. The rear right door didn't align with the body.

Also I couldn't figure out how to manipulate the a/c, the turn signal stalk was too smart for me and kept turning the signals off at the wrong time * etc. Too bad about that engine.

* I have a feeling their designers only ever drove on wide american streets that have only 90 degree intersections. For the life of me i couldn't get the turn signal to stay when the main road was going right and i was trying to get on a secondary road that was like 30 degrees to the left. Probably because i was basically going straight ahead from the point of view of the car at the start.

As per this thread "average discerning German car buyer". I don't know why the fuck everyone else should give a shitb about the opinions of the "average discerning German car buyer". Is he some kind of Nordic ideal car buyer everyone else should aspire towards?!

Not once in my life has anyone talked about car panel gaps except on web forums when demonstrating Teslas or rubbish. I had one poster explain to me what is and what is not a luxury car. Alright man, good for you!

People may not use the term "panel gap" but "hey that Tesla looks like it has big gaps between the fender and door". Who the fuck cares what forums think when normal everyday people notice it too and may not know the word?

I hate elon musk as much as anyone else, check my comment history. But literally no one has said that to me in the 4 years that I have owned a Tesla.

Honestly, Who really cares? Perhaps I haven't met the discerning average German car buyer.

You know what bugs me about my car? The fact that the range has dropped by 20% and Tesla support says there is no problem.

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