Apple Fined $1.2m by Italian Antitrust Authority | Hacker News Reader

Apple Fined $1.2m by Italian Antitrust Authority

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55 pointsFluidDjango24 comments

I think Apple got in trouble with Chinese authorities over warranty time too. Every computer sold in China has to come with a 2 year warranty for main components (screen, mainboard etc). iPad was marketed under portable computer category. Apple changed its policy to comply with China's consumer protection law.

In EU everything you buy is protected with a minimum of two years by law.

It would be odd and not clever for Apple to intentionally and illegally try to be paid for one more year of customer support. I think this didn't happen for two reasons:

- They just did want to keep it simple and have the same customer service rules across all countries.

- They just didn't deepen into the EU laws, which I think is a syntom of "corporate laziness".

Actually there is another option: they did know about the law, but the costs of supporting a longer free customer service is higher than paying a fee: lots of free product replacements? Just thinking.

> The company, which sells its products with a one year warranty, is required under EU law to protect buyers with a minimum of two years protection on all consumer electronics

I've never heard of such a law (which admittedly doesn't by itself make it nonexistent), and about every single consumer electronic device out there in France is sold with a one-year warranty, and every electronic retailer out there (Fnac, Darty...) sells warranty extensions from the original one year to mostly three years (sometimes two, four or five years).

Here in Spain the law is that one, 2 years, but didn't know it was for all Europe and Apple, FNAC and others have had problems selling warranty extensions for the second year when they should have given it for free and some customers have reclaimed it and in the end they have to give it for free or use the extension for a third year.

I think directive 1999/44/EC introduced that law, you can search on the EU site or here's a quick link with further info: http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.h...

The MINIMUM is two years guarantee on electronics for defects present at the time of sale. European member countries are free to add additional protections, but 2 years is the minimum. For example, the 2 year minimum isn't specified in Dutch law because for many products (e.g. a washing machine) the buyer can reasonably expect a longer lifetime (see in Dutch: http://www.consuwijzer.nl/Ik_wil_advies_over/Elektronica_en_... ).

You can also expect salespeople to play dumb about this (or perhaps they really don't know) and to suggest the defect happened because of your own misdoing, but keep pressing them and they'll need to give in. We tend to pay a hefty surcharge on electronics in Europe (even taking into consideration differences in VAT etc., see for example http://www.asymco.com/2011/12/20/the-big-mac/ ), so in my mind this guarantee is something I've paid for and have a right to.

We have to remember two things about this law:

1) it's "for defects present at the time of sale" (as you stated), and this leads to various (mis)interpretations (like "how can i demonstrate that a non working hard disk was already not perfect at the time of sale and that's not my fault, or just the normal effect of the time and usage?)

2) it's valid only for consumers, so if you're a business and you buy anything using your VAT account, you're not covered by this law and you must stick to the typical commercial warranty (in Italy it is minimum 1 year)

Warranty is not the same as the protection the law requires. The warranty companies offer are often more generous than what is required of them by law, but also more limited in duration.

In Germany the problem is that the burden of proof reverses after twelve months, making the protection afforded by the law practically useless after a year. I think the individual countries get a lot of leeway in how they implement those EU directives, so details in those laws might be very different in different countries.

The burden of proof for the mandatory warranty reverses after six months (not twelve) in Germany.

For the first six months the manufacturer has to prove that the damage was inflicted by the customer and not a problem with the device itself. After that for another 18 months the customer has to prove that the device was already defective when he acquired it and he's not to blame.

Adding to that the manufacturer itself can give any voluntary guarantee he wants (Apple usually offers one year and you are able to extend it with AppleCare). It's a private contract between the manufacturer and the customer.

It's seems that "Apple pushed a paid warranty service with its AppleCare service" and Italy wasn't happy about it.

Ah, yeah, six months, right. I think that was changed sometime ago. I'm still stuck on the twelve months.

It's a bit different thing with that EU law. EU does not force to anybody offer any warranty, BUT EU demands that:

"If the item you bought does not look or function as it was advertised, or if it is not satisfactory, you have the right to have the item replaced or to get your money back if the re- placement was not completed in a reasonable time at no extra cost."

Warranty by large means that manufactures promises to repair your item (or replace). EU forces seller, not manufacturer, to take action.

Here the main point is, IMHO, that EU directive or not, this is a widely adopted practice in Italy for everything. As long as you have with you your receipt two years guarantee is provided on everything but Apple product. This always looked very odd... laws can't be changed at random because of a single company policy.

I must admin that, that said, the Apple support when you have a non working product is incredibly good. I saw many people with a broken iPhone entering the Apple Store in Catania an exiting 5 minutes later with a replacement. I experimented this myself with a broken screen in my MBA.

In the UK the Sales of Goods Act just states the goods must work for a 'reasonable' amount of time, no exact time frames are given. And with a £1000+ computer, a reasonable amount of time in my opinion as a consumer would be at least 3 years. Though of course, you may have to go to the small claims court to fight your case with that, but I know a few people who've had repairs and replacements way outside of the manufacturer's stated 1 year warranty by mentioning this law to the retailer.

These assholes, i was at the Munich Apple shop last month and the sales guy was incredible rude to sell me the 2 year warranty. This costs round about 150€ extra.

This is just a rip-off i didn't expect from a company like Apple. Stupid move. They risk damaging their valuable brand, while having enough money in the bank. They lost me as a customer, my next phone will be an Android.

They lost my sympathy with this whole patent stuff already, but i still thought they really care about their customers.

The German law is worthless in this regard. It gets you nothing, nowhere. You need a warranty.

Apple Care is properly awesome but you shouldn’t buy it in the store, you should buy it on ebay.

(I would complain about the salesperson. They are definitely not supposed to be pushy. You encountered very abnormal behavior. I have never encountered pushy employees in the Munich Apple Store. Sure, they will ask whether you want Apple Care, but just saying no was always enough.)

The European law also applies there, so the 2 year warranty was included anyway as far as is understand it.

Or, in short, the amount of profit that they earn -- on average -- every 86 minutes (going by the July 2011 figures).

So should Apple be punished more punitively so that they actually follow the law?

That seems entirely reasonable. Drunk Driving (and possibly other) fines in the UK take income into account so if it works for people, it should certainly work for corporations.

What's a punishment if it's trivial enough that it goes unnoticed?

It's more clever looking at revenue -- it takes Apple 6 minutes to bank $1.3 million dollars.

Two years in Italy for everything but Apple stuff. Always looked very odd, I hope this issue will get fixed.

I hear they are doing the same thing in Norway, too, offering 2 years of warranty instead of the usual 3 year warranty there. It's strange that the company that wants to be known for having the highest quality products offers the smallest warranty period.

PCs, TVs, Cellphones etc. has five years warranty in Norway. See paragraph 27 of forbrukerkjøpsloven (Act on Consumer Sales) http://www.lovdata.no/all/hl-20020621-034.html#27

Ove Magndal from ElektronikkForbundet has produced a simple and abridged edition of the Norwegian Forbrukerkjøpsloven: http://www.elektronikkbransjen.no/Stiftelsen/?pageId=2&a...

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